View Full Version : Federal Restitution - In a nutshell


jft
07-29-2004, 01:49 PM
For all of those facing restitution -

I know many of you are looking at large amounts of restitution that you are being ordered to pay and thinking -"I will never be able to pay this off in a hundred million years" You are right, you won't.

But the federal government knows that too, and they don't expect that it will all be paid back. They will though try to get as much of it for the victim as they can.

When you are released you will be asked to fill out a number of forms disclosing assets, income (including income from spouse and dependants living at home) etc.

You will be asked to fill them out for both the Federal Litigation Unit in your state and for your probation officer. Your restitution payment will be based on your answers here. It is important for you to be honest when filling out these forms as it is "under oath" and states that on the forms. There is no asset worth going back to prison for.

List all living expenses and leave nothing out, include a grocery/per month estimate, a clothing estimate, if a member of the family has ongoing medical expenses, include the deductible that you know you will be paying. These are real expenses and are not unreasonable, do not overinflate them to huge amounts that are not believeable..(allowing for a mink coat wouldn't fly..lol)
The FLU/Feds will consider all of these expenses but will deduct what they think are unnessary luxuries ie cable movie channels. If you have a lot of assets even if they are not in your own name (for instance if spouse has 6 cars in his/her name) they will not force him/her to necessarily sell them but they will be considered that they are available asssets that "could reasonably be sold to pay household expenses. This does not mean that you go out and put them in someone elses name...ILLEGAL under the circumstances.

When all is said and done what is left over is disposable income and from that comes your restitution payment.

As many of you have seen in my posts, I have chosen not to disclose my income and have not yet seen a reprecussion from it and do not think that I will. We did though list all assets. As far as garnishing from wages, they can garnish your states maximum amount and will IF YOU DO NOT PAY your required amount. They will give you that chance first though.

Just because on your judgement and commitment order there is an oredered amount "during time of probation or supervised release" does not release you from the liability when it is over. They just can't throw you back in prison anymore. They can and will try to collect. The FLU has the power to try to collect for 20 years and can renew for another 20 if they so choose.

You will no doubt have liens on your home even if it is in your spouses name, they will in the event of a sale take your share of the equity, your spouse has the right to his/hers.

In a nutshell, the government will allow you enough money to live, not extravagatnly, but you will not starve. Many will have to change their lifestyles somewhat, but you will survive this too. We have just gone through all of this and I am actually happy with the outcome, we are not vacationing and spending money all over the place, but we are comfortable and not suffering in any way.

Those that have not even surrendered yet, do not worry about this right now..it doesn't matter and it like everything else is one more hurdle that you will get through when the time comes. Enjoy your time with your families while you have it and know that at some point this will really all be overwith.
"This too will pass"

If you have any questions, let me know.

InboundTrain
07-29-2004, 02:15 PM
I was told they will only collect while i was on probation. Also My wifewants to purchase a home. In her name as she has perfect credit and i do not. They will be able to put a lien on the home? Have you ever heard of anyone filing bankrupt after probation? And what about moving out of the country after probation? Thanks...

jft
07-29-2004, 02:19 PM
There is no bankruptcy on restitution and they can and will collect after probation.
They will NOT put a lien on a house in her name only...only if in both of your names. If it was yours alone they would have taken it already.

InboundTrain
07-29-2004, 02:28 PM
My wifes dad is giving here 50k to put down on a house. So if she buys it and its in her name alone they can not touch it or touch the equity if she ever decides to sell it? Or would it be wise to file for divorce and continue to be together. Is there anyway around it legally? Because i would not want to jepordize my freedom.

jft
07-29-2004, 02:35 PM
If the house is in her name only, you should have no problem..filing for divorce was an idea I had too, but was advised against it by an attorney who specializes in this area.
It could be construed as hiding assets. They cannot touch it if she later decides to sell.

Be forward also on your restitution..the victim can at anytime also put a civil judgement against you or any property YOU own along with the governments.

Our victim chose not to at this time, but I guarantee if the payments stop or when his probation is over, it will probably be there.

JJT
07-29-2004, 02:53 PM
You are a god send!!

Fellah and I are not married, but will be living together. I am going to be his release address in the state of Washington. Would the situation be the same as a married couple? I know that is bordering on a legal question, and will take it as advise only.

Thank you.

JJT

jft
07-29-2004, 03:15 PM
No, it would not be the same..your income cannot be included on anything, you are not a dependent...here you would be wise to charge him "rent" in the amount of his share of the bills..again you would need to be realistic here and the bills need to be proven. No assets or property of yours will be considered for anything at all.

Cinammo
07-29-2004, 03:21 PM
Inboundtrain,

The idea about moving out of country sounds like a good idea except I don't think we convicted felons can travel much of anywhere! As far as bankruptcy goes you can file for bankruptcy but you are still obligated to pay the Feds. You might get out of paying everyone one else though :) My attorney stated to me that after probation there is something that can be filed with the court asking them to release you from your restitution. I'm not sure what it is called or how you do it, but it's worth asking about.

cjjack
07-29-2004, 03:23 PM
Cinammo, you are able to travel to some countries as a convicted felon. Lots of people on supervised release travel out of the country.

Cinammo
07-29-2004, 03:27 PM
Can you move for good? Because if I can, I'm moving to New Zealand!

cjjack
07-29-2004, 03:35 PM
LOL, I don't know if you can move for good! Nice thought though, I think I'd move to Switzerland. Or maybe to Paris, so I can go visit Phil a lot!!!

BillnDenise
07-29-2004, 04:11 PM
Thank goodness my Sweetie doesn't owe any restitution...He only had a $100 fine and it's already been paid. Whew...at least we won't have to worry about that...but I'm sure something else will come up.

jft
07-29-2004, 04:43 PM
We finally just decided to look at it for what it really is.....a $188,000 no interest loan payable over 100 years!!! what bank could you get that deal at!

InboundTrain
07-29-2004, 04:53 PM
We finally just decided to look at it for what it really is.....a $188,000 no interest loan payable over 100 years!!! what bank could you get that deal at!

If the restitution was 300k and you only got 40k then your really hurtin lol :eek:

jft
07-29-2004, 05:02 PM
arrghhhh!!!!

txgrannie
07-29-2004, 08:02 PM
I was told to pay 10% of earned income. I have not had any earned income since 12/31/2003 and will not until I have served my time [4 months] and obtain a job. My attorney told me that I would never get it repaid in my life time - I am 56 and in poor health.

How does community property states effect the restitution repayment?

MrBill
07-29-2004, 08:10 PM
Keep receipts on anyhing you do pay. I paid my sons restitution and every 6 months or so they send another bill, and anything he has in his account is taken. I make a few phone calls, get things taken care of but in the mean time he can't get anything from the commissary. Then it takes 3 months to get his money back (with not interest). They are worse than the IRS!

jft
07-29-2004, 08:12 PM
community property states affect assets that may be in the spouses name for instance if your home is in your spouses name, it is still up for grabs by the government because the spouse still may have an equal holding in it.

jft
07-29-2004, 08:15 PM
to TXGrannie, after your sentence you can have your restitution amount re-looked at upon release...you can't pay what you don't have...and obviously if you don't have a job you won't be able to pay the 10%.

kwp
11-30-2004, 03:41 AM
Good info JFT. My sentencing is Thursday and I am expecting 3-4 years. All my assets except a car and household items have been surrendered for restitution and most of it has been paid. However, I will still owe 250K. I haven't worked since 6/30/03. A big hole but I'll dig my way out one day at a time.

Tanchik
12-02-2004, 03:00 PM
My husband's restitution is completely unreasonable - it's in millions and I am really worried about how that will turn out upon his release. he was also ordered to pay 80% of his income!!! The feds did put a lien on our house, but I was able to hire a lawyer to fight that off.. well partially, without having to give away all 50% (we agreed on about 20%), but the house will no longer be on his or my names, I'll rent it.

But other than that... 80% of income is really scary. I am curious to find out what can be done to change that (the % not the amount)

jft
12-06-2004, 06:50 AM
Does it read that way in his J&C???, about the 80% I mean.

If not, payment will be set up by the federal litigation unit who does the collecting. They can't take what you don't have and you have to be allowed enough to live?

Tanchik
12-06-2004, 07:12 AM
Yes, it's been set to 80% at sentencing! I am wondering if there is a way to change that...?

Does it read that way in his J&C???, about the 80% I mean.

If not, payment will be set up by the federal litigation unit who does the collecting. They can't take what you don't have and you have to be allowed enough to live?

Cindi-lu
01-05-2005, 08:22 AM
JFT, this info is really helpful, but I'm curious how restitution works on the state level, paricularly in Nevada. I will be buying my own house within the next month or so. My sweetheart and I want to get married when he makes parole, hopefully in '06. Will my house be considered one of his assets if it's titled "sole and separate property"? My income being considered doesn't really bother me, but I want to protect the house. I have NO doubt that he will be 100% good on making his payments, but just don't want any surprises.
Also, he has been told that once his sentence expires so does the restitution. I find that hard to believe in light of your original post, but maybe it's different on a state level?
Thanks for any info!

kathy50
01-05-2005, 12:19 PM
What is the differnce from restitution and a judgement against someone and also what is the difference from a state charge and a federal charge im new to this and i am so scared i dont know where to go or what to do i havent been charged with anything its been since oct that the bank called and told me that the check i got was a counterfeact check from nigeria so i dont know if im going to be charged with reciveing it or not being able to pay the bank back can anyone help me with these questions

jft
01-05-2005, 05:23 PM
To: Cindy lu
The risk to your house if it is soley in your name is pretty much zero. You are not responsible for his debts and especially if he acquired them BEFORE your marriage.
Those debts remain only with him. Double check with a lawyer tho if you are a community property state. I do not know much about how it would affect you if NV is one.

To Kathy:
The differences in state and federal can be alot and I know nothing about state charges in WV. I would hazard a guess that if a bank is involved it would be federal, just guessing here though
As far as the difference between restitution and a judgement...you cannot file bankruptcy on court ordered-restitution and you can on a judgement. You will probably also have a judgement filed against your property for the restitution amount to protect themselves further.

Cindi-lu
01-05-2005, 09:52 PM
JFT, thanks! This gives me a heads up, since yes, Nevada IS a community property state.
Any idea where I can find the information on community property laws there? I haven't moved there yet so am not familiar w/ their laws.
Also, should I contact the parole board w/ my question on whether or not the restitution ends w/ the sentence expiring?
Again, thanks for all the help!

franisue
01-05-2005, 11:42 PM
Hi guys, I was just looking around PTO and was actually thinking about the resitution that was imposed on me $800K...I too don't think I'll ever be able to pay it back. But my question is, will I ever to be able to buy a home in my name again if the $ isn't fully paid back???? And your right I really shouldn't be thinking about this now as I haven't even surrendered yet, 1/14/05, FCC Coleman Women. But I can't help put wonder...And can it be discharged off at any point after or during my probation. Any info will be helpful. Thanks

Frani

dizzulsgirl
05-29-2005, 07:46 PM
I have a question. I was sentenced and ordered to pay restitution. I just received a letter in the mail from FLU (financial litigation unit) asking me to fill out all the paperwork as to my income (I am currently unemployed) and they also want me to sign a release that will allow them to get any financial information they want. Now, my question is do I have to fill out these papers in their entirety? I mean, must I sign a release for them to be able to gain access to all financial information about me? I know that they are the federal government and can basically obtain what they wish, but what might the reprocussions (sp?) be if I choose to leave out the signed release of financial information.

TxRhino
05-30-2005, 12:02 AM
My wife and I where not married when her crime was commited. She owns nothing and anything we have was (and is still) in my name prior to the marriage. She is currently serving 30 months. During the whole process I was never been contacted by the feds. My wifes attorney told her to exclude any assetes that I have as they were mine prior to her offense and cannot be touched. Any truth to this and will the same hold true after her release?

jft
05-31-2005, 11:14 AM
Any information that they want regarding YOU, must be filled out in it's entirety, anything else could be construed as trying to hide assets. TXRhino is correct as far as assets that belong to him.

Asher
06-01-2005, 02:38 PM
Before providing and information regarding assets or income of a spouse - consult a lawyer experienced in this area (there are a few).

jft
06-01-2005, 03:02 PM
I was told by both a lawyer and hubby's p.o. that i was in no way obligated to give my income to anyone. We did list all assets as hubby had a right to use them (vehicles, the house and such) and I felt it was fair to list them. But...my income is MY income it is mine all mine and NOBODY gets that information except the IRS.

mikeinflorida
11-22-2005, 01:02 PM
moving up
Hi JFt,
My restitution payments are a bit away. Do I have to disclose my wife's income/assetts? She had nothing to do with my crime. Also, I plan on filing seperate taxes.

Thanks
Mike

jft
11-22-2005, 01:19 PM
We did disclose assets, but NOT my income. she is NOT required however to disclose those either. If there were any asset changes between you and her though, it could be considered hiding them. But assets that were always hers and hers only do not need to be disclosed.

mikeinflorida
11-22-2005, 05:17 PM
We did disclose assets, but NOT my income. she is NOT required however to disclose those either. If there were any asset changes between you and her though, it could be considered hiding them. But assets that were always hers and hers only do not need to be disclosed.

I thought you have to disclose income?

Mike

jft
11-23-2005, 04:25 PM
His income had to be disclosed...since I have nothing to do with the crime..I disclosed nothing about my income...

mikeinflorida
11-23-2005, 07:03 PM
His income had to be disclosed...since I have nothing to do with the crime..I disclosed nothing about my income...

Thanks,
Did you disclose assets held in your name?

Thanks
Mike

Monarch
11-23-2005, 09:18 PM
Interesting topic. I had $187,000 restitution and paid $145,000 before sentencing ( I think they were ecstatic to get it and I was later sick that I had paid it)! I paid $75.00 a month while I was in through FRP and was released in early Sept - no supervised release. Since then I have TRIED to contact the district of my conviction to set up payments and they said they had no record of my restitution - WHAT???? And would contact me if they needed to. What the hell? Our tax dollars at work and our govt at its finest. I know I still owe $40,000 something - how is that they do not know this? From my experience, a kindergarten class led by my golden retriever, Scooter, could run the DOJ more effectively. Just my .02

Cinammo
11-25-2005, 07:54 PM
In a way that is good thing. Yet I know how you might feel, wondering when they will figure this out. Payng off restitution was the best feeling I had. Wishing they had forgot about it was another.

drummer
11-26-2005, 09:02 AM
Until they find the record again and determine that the didn't find any payments against it! I've watched as mine has not gone down by the amount I've paid into it and then they tell me I have no rights to ask them about it as a felon.

jft
11-27-2005, 03:05 PM
Assets that I disclosed were thinks such as our house, vehicles, personal savings acct. anything that hubby could have touched and such, yes, I did disclose more for my piece of mind that they knew that Hubby was not hiding anything in any account of mine. Things like my company 401K ...no. My income, my 401K he could never have touched anyway, and they are soley mine.

To drummer, I have had no problem with the FLU in MN at all. They have always answered my and hubby's questions with no problem. The monthly statement that we get shows the amount that he has paid in and it drops by that amount every month.

chattycathy
04-23-2008, 06:21 PM
My understanding was that any "income"...that the person owing federal restitution enjoys or benefits from, needs to be disclosed in the financials to the probation officer. Does it matter only if you are married in a community property state? We are in a community property state, where everything that comes in after marriage date is split evenly between both spouses.

tigerlily256
06-23-2008, 07:06 PM
My friend owes 5 million restution he thinks he can make a settlement of like 200 thousand anybody heared of this? i GUESS HE CAN NEVER HAVE ANYTHING IN HIS NAME TRUE?:angry:

bellisq
06-27-2008, 09:50 AM
no settlement, everything will have to stay in his wife's name.

bvgir
06-27-2008, 04:24 PM
My Man Owes 385,000.00 In Restitution, His Mom Planned On Leaving Him The House And Some Cash, Will They Take This? Or Will They Work Out A Payment Plan?

bellisq
06-28-2008, 08:20 AM
I think he should consult a post-conviction lawyer about this, and she should work with an estate planner. Until the restitution is paid, i think the government will immediately put a lien on any inheritance.

jatieme
07-02-2008, 12:21 PM
For all of those facing restitution -

I know many of you are looking at large amounts of restitution that you are being ordered to pay and thinking -"I will never be able to pay this off in a hundred million years" You are right, you won't.

But the federal government knows that too, and they don't expect that it will all be paid back. They will though try to get as much of it for the victim as they can.

When you are released you will be asked to fill out a number of forms disclosing assets, income (including income from spouse and dependants living at home) etc.

You will be asked to fill them out for both the Federal Litigation Unit in your state and for your probation officer. Your restitution payment will be based on your answers here. It is important for you to be honest when filling out these forms as it is "under oath" and states that on the forms. There is no asset worth going back to prison for.

List all living expenses and leave nothing out, include a grocery/per month estimate, a clothing estimate, if a member of the family has ongoing medical expenses, include the deductible that you know you will be paying. These are real expenses and are not unreasonable, do not overinflate them to huge amounts that are not believeable..(allowing for a mink coat wouldn't fly..lol)
The FLU/Feds will consider all of these expenses but will deduct what they think are unnessary luxuries ie cable movie channels. If you have a lot of assets even if they are not in your own name (for instance if spouse has 6 cars in his/her name) they will not force him/her to necessarily sell them but they will be considered that they are available asssets that "could reasonably be sold to pay household expenses. This does not mean that you go out and put them in someone elses name...ILLEGAL under the circumstances.

When all is said and done what is left over is disposable income and from that comes your restitution payment.

As many of you have seen in my posts, I have chosen not to disclose my income and have not yet seen a reprecussion from it and do not think that I will. We did though list all assets. As far as garnishing from wages, they can garnish your states maximum amount and will IF YOU DO NOT PAY your required amount. They will give you that chance first though.

Just because on your judgement and commitment order there is an oredered amount "during time of probation or supervised release" does not release you from the liability when it is over. They just can't throw you back in prison anymore. They can and will try to collect. The FLU has the power to try to collect for 20 years and can renew for another 20 if they so choose.

You will no doubt have liens on your home even if it is in your spouses name, they will in the event of a sale take your share of the equity, your spouse has the right to his/hers.

In a nutshell, the government will allow you enough money to live, not extravagatnly, but you will not starve. Many will have to change their lifestyles somewhat, but you will survive this too. We have just gone through all of this and I am actually happy with the outcome, we are not vacationing and spending money all over the place, but we are comfortable and not suffering in any way.

Those that have not even surrendered yet, do not worry about this right now..it doesn't matter and it like everything else is one more hurdle that you will get through when the time comes. Enjoy your time with your families while you have it and know that at some point this will really all be overwith.
"This too will pass"

If you have any questions, let me know.

do you know why they would take my stimulus check and i just got out...my payments havent even started yet

chattycathy
09-17-2008, 09:48 AM
What happens if you you simply do not pay? The minimum rest. payment has been set. Can you be reprosecuted for non-payment or misrepresentation about assets and income?

alohalife
02-12-2009, 10:01 PM
My boyfriend and I have been together for many years now, and he is in prison for the next 5 years. I am wondering what will hapen with the 300,000 dollars in restitution he is ordered to pay if we get marrried. I have a good paying job. Can they dock my pay? Will that make me responsible for his debts?
thanks!!
Aja

Bernies Buddy
03-13-2009, 10:10 AM
I trying to contact the FLU. Do you have contact information? It is in regard to back restitution in the amount of $350, 000 of which interest only has been paid for approximately 12 years. Do you have any information?

Gulliver55
03-29-2009, 01:14 AM
OK, I have read through this and have some questions.

Are we required to list my wifes income/401k? She did not commit the crime
and is not the one listed on the restitution, I am. We do not live in a community
property state but the form I received states "... to clarify that the assets owned, jointly owned or controlled by a defendant and liabilities are all relevant to the courts decision regarding the ability to pay. Your net worth statement should include assets or debts that are yours alone, assets or debts that are jointly held by you and a spouse or significant other, assets or debts that are held by a spouse or significant other that you enjoy the benefits of or make occasional contributions toward, and assets or debts that are held by a dependent that you enjoy the benefits of or make occasional contributions toward." as well as this section: "Transfer of Assets: Include any assets that you have transferred or sold since the date of your arrest with a cost or fair market value of more than $500.00 also list any assets that someone else is holding on your behalf."

So does this mean the 3 cars we owned in the last 3 years that were all sold have to be listed even though they were all owned and sold by my wife? I don't have any bill of sale so am I going to get into a shooting match with them over the cost of the car and what it was sold for? Gee, we also gave a car to my sister when she lost her car to an accident. My mother gave us the money to buy that car because she knows we were able to find a reliable car where she wasn't. To the Fed's it will look like we're Rockefeller and made money selling cars but that isn't the case.

EDIT:

Since I am unemployed right now, by them looking at my wifes income, isn't that the same as her being made to pay restitution for a crime she didn't commit?
Also, if I black out her info on the W2, can they say anything? If she has a few grand in her account, say twice the mortgage as a cushion, will they try and take
it?

bellisq
03-29-2009, 03:48 AM
As I understand it, the only time you are required to divulge your wife's financial information is for the PSR. It would be worth seeking out a legal expert's opinion to get a solid reading.

I'm guessing there hasn't been any new significant activity since your incarceration. You do want to make sure that your info on both forms is consistent.

Gulliver55
03-29-2009, 09:56 AM
As I understand it, the only time you are required to divulge your wife's financial information is for the PSR. It would be worth seeking out a legal expert's opinion to get a solid reading.

I'm guessing there hasn't been any new significant activity since your incarceration. You do want to make sure that your info on both forms is consistent.


Thanks for the reply. I will contact the Attorney in PA you suggested.

I re-read my sentencing report. It is entitled at the top:

"Judgment in a criminal case"

I read it from front to back and the first page clearly states the defendant is sentenced as provided in pages 2 through 5 of this judgment. No where in it does it say anything about me not being able to apply for credit but I would swear that somewhere I recall being told that, either at the sentencing or by one of the probation officers I have had and I am not on the 3rd person but no where in the Judgment does it say this so would this mean the PO can only enforce what is in this report?

PTO-97580
03-29-2009, 12:41 PM
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C

Gulliver55
03-29-2009, 02:08 PM
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C


Aside from remembering that I heard something to that effect, isn't the Sentence handed down by the judge the set of rules the probation officer
is supposed to enforce? It seems pretty clear, it listed 16 things I have to
comply with. One of them covers the basics with local, state and federal law so as to not leave the ...basics out. If it isn't in writing, what keeps them from saying I violated because I failed to wear purple on Tuesday? Granted that is an extreme but my point is that simple. The point of everything being written and documented is so that there is accountability. Trying to enforce rules not in writing ties my hands, how can I be accountable when any rule can be made up at any time? If not applying for credit is a standard supervised release provision, where can I find a complete set of these rules? Is there a copy here on the forum?

What do you think will happen once they run my credit report?

Gulliver55
03-29-2009, 02:52 PM
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C


This doesn't fit with something you said in a different thread:

forums / showthread php?t=110816&page=3

If it isn't in the Sentencing, how can I be expected to obey it?

Gulliver55
03-29-2009, 04:49 PM
Not applying for credit is a standard SR provision. It wouldnt be in your J & C

Taken from the other thread....

There is no general restriction that you cant apply for credit while on SR. Now if you owe fines or restitution or had a financial crime, a PO or Judge may put that stipulation on your SR.

As to purchasing a house, I can understand why they wouldnt let him if he owes fines or restitution but once that is paid off, it shouldnt be a problem


So if it won't be in the official printed, signed Sentence then where would
this rule exist? I Googled it but came up empty handed.

PTO-97580
03-29-2009, 07:40 PM
When I said a standard provision, I meant it is a provision many PO's will give. I guess I should have explained myself a little better.

Gulliver55
03-29-2009, 07:43 PM
How can that be legal? for a PO to override the Judge with additional sanctions?
That hardly seems enforceable in court. There was a restriction the Prosecutor
wanted to place on me that the Judge shot down, who's to say he can't then just
approach the PO and suggest that very same restriction side stepping the Judge.

The Judge is just that---and for good reason.

If the PO tries to make a deal of it, I will gladly show her my true, legal
and court issued Sentence.

Can I be violated for something not even listed in my Sentence?

brucef11
03-30-2009, 10:24 PM
I'm far from an expert, but have been on SR going on 18 months now. After reading the thread, I pulled my J&C to check it out. On page 4 of the J&C, it lists all special conditions of supervision. On my J&C there are 10 possible conditions present, with number 5 stating (The defendant shall be prohibited from incurring new credit charges, opening additional lines of credit, acquisitions or obligating himself/herself for any major purchases without approval of the probation office.) This condition was not checked on my judgement. I myself have never been told by either of my 2 PO's that I couldn't acquire new credit, and I have done so on many occasions, which have been disclosed on my monthly reports, with no negative feedback from probation. I personally think that type of restriction must show up on your judgement for probation to be able to enforce it. Good luck.....

Gulliver55
03-30-2009, 10:34 PM
I'm far from an expert, but have been on SR going on 18 months now. After reading the thread, I pulled my J&C to check it out. On page 4 of the J&C, it lists all special conditions of supervision. On my J&C there are 10 possible conditions present, with number 5 stating (The defendant shall be prohibited from incurring new credit charges, opening additional lines of credit, acquisitions or obligating himself/herself for any major purchases without approval of the probation office.) This condition was not checked on my judgement. I myself have never been told by either of my 2 PO's that I couldn't acquire new credit, and I have done so on many occasions, which have been disclosed on my monthly reports, with no negative feedback from probation. I personally think that type of restriction must show up on your judgement for probation to be able to enforce it. Good luck.....



Thank you for your input. I have a question or two...

You said that on page 4 of your J&C are "Special Conditions" and one of them has language directed at opening new lines of credit.
After this you said "This condition was not checked on my Judgment", what did you mean by "checked"? Also, if it is on the J&C, is
that not the same as the Judgment order??

None of my J&C pages have any check marks and page 4 is the list of
restrictions, from what I have read online and an attorney confirmed is
a list of the standard restrictions. Page 5 is for my Restitution. I have no section for "Special Conditions".

I no longer fill out monthly sheets but I have a copy here, no where on it
does it ask about lines of credit, only my existing bank accounts. Yours asks about credit?

PTO-97580
03-31-2009, 05:19 AM
Hopefully FedPO will check in on this soon and we can get some definitive answers.

brucef11
03-31-2009, 08:08 AM
I'm in the Middle District of Florida, other districts may have different J&C paperwork. On my J&C on page 3 it lists the standard conditions of supervised release. Page 4 is titled "Special Conditions Of Supervised Release", this page lists 10 possible special conditions. There is a small line next to each condition, where if it applies there is room for a X mark next to the condition. (sorry I said check mark before). On my judgement only 3 special conditions have been checked or x'd. One of those not x'd was the condition concerning a defendant not incurring new credit charges ect. One of X'd conditions is very specific to my former profession, so I think this page might be done as an addendum. The conditions not X'd include those for SO's, CP, illegal aliens, ect.

Now, I have had 2 different PO's, and each thoroughly reviewed my J&C with me at the beginning. When they reviewed the special conditions, they both said that only the 3 conditions which had been X'd are those that I had to comply with.

Lastly, on my monthly report I list the entire amount of my credit card charges under the expense heading "credit cards". I have also done many account money transfers which I have also disclosed. I have had many purchases over $500 which I list each month. I purchased a new car on credit which I also disclosed on my report. I have never been told by either PO that I was not in compliance.

I hope this helps, and like I said, my J&C may be specific to the Middle District of Florida. Good Luck....

Gulliver55
03-31-2009, 08:22 AM
I'm in the Middle District of Florida, other districts may have different J&C paperwork. On my J&C on page 3 it lists the standard conditions of supervised release. Page 4 is titled "Special Conditions Of Supervised Release", this page lists 10 possible special conditions. There is a small line next to each condition, where if it applies there is room for a X mark next to the condition. (sorry I said check mark before). On my judgement only 3 special conditions have been checked or x'd. One of those not x'd was the condition concerning a defendant not incurring new credit charges ect. One of X'd conditions is very specific to my former profession, so I think this page might be done as an addendum. The conditions not X'd include those for SO's, CP, illegal aliens, ect.

Now, I have had 2 different PO's, and each thoroughly reviewed my J&C with me at the beginning. When they reviewed the special conditions, they both said that only the 3 conditions which had been X'd are those that I had to comply with.

Lastly, on my monthly report I list the entire amount of my credit card charges under the expense heading "credit cards". I have also done many account money transfers which I have also disclosed. I have had many purchases over $500 which I list each month. I purchased a new car on credit which I also disclosed on my report. I have never been told by either PO that I was not in compliance.

I hope this helps, and like I said, my J&C may be specific to the Middle District of Florida. Good Luck....

Ah.

So a J&C can look different based on where the court is...I incorrectly presumed it was a standard government form.

Gulliver55
03-31-2009, 08:37 AM
A Google search reveals examples of other peoples J&C online.

Here are three examples of J&C's with "Special Conditions" and all three have
conditions on opening new lines of credit. My J&C has none of these directives
and so I don't see how the PO can attempt to force such a condition on me.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3w1xw5vnvcl

http://www.mediafire.com/?jkmhimi5u1w

http://www.mediafire.com/?mbkyzfacyiv

I contacted several attorneys on this subject, only one responded back as of
right now and she said that without the verbiage in my J&C prohibiting, the PO would
need a modification before being able to hold me accountable. She did go on to say
that the PO may be trying to twist the meaning of this:

"(13) as directed by the probation officer, the defendant shall notify third parties of risks that may be occasioned by the defendant's criminal record or personal history or characteristics, and shall permit the probation officer to make such notifications and to confirm the defendant's compliance with such notification requirement"

or this one...

(3) the defendant shall answer truthfully all inquiries by the probation officer and follow the instructions of the probation officer

To justify placing a restriction on new lines of credit, she said that so long as
my credit accounts are paid current, my restitution is current and no illegal
activities resulted from having lines of credit, the Judge is not likely to violate
me for having opened them. Even less likely since I did not sign anything from
the PO accepting any conditions above those in my J&C.

Gulliver55
04-01-2009, 10:09 PM
For the concern of spousal assets and income, it seems 18 USC 3664 has some loose verbiage that could be interpreted to say that the Probation Dept has a right to see
spousal income and assets. This is very disconcerting.

AllThrtl
04-27-2009, 10:51 PM
FYI... one of my wifes cellies had her SR revoked because she applied for credit to buy a car. Her PO actually gave her verbal permission, but when the higher ups found out about it, her PO denied knowing anything about it and her SR was revoked and she has to spend the last 12 months back in the camp....Be careful and get everything in writing....

Looking for opinions on my own situation... My wifes lawyer suggested it was a good idea for us to divorce to protect me and my assets from the scrutiny of the FLU as well as her own debt that is going unpaid while she's locked up. He suggested she give me the house in the divorce as well. Now I'm concerned how her PO is going to feel about this and the possible repercussions.

She is serving a 12 month sentence and she went in 02/2009. The PO came by to check out the house last week and asked if it was ok for her to live here when released. I told him YES but I didn't mention the pending divorce. Her lawyer filed the divorce the day she went in and it will be final in the next week or so. I guess I'm just worried about further problems... I asked her lawyer if giving the house to me in the divorce would be looked at as hiding assets by the FLU, but he said it shouldn't be a problem... I guess I've just learned to expect the worst...

Deaf Boy
05-14-2009, 07:37 PM
If the Feds are requiring you to list your spouse's income, presumably they are calculating that income into their analysis of how much you should pay short of the state maximum. Isn't that unconstitutional in itself as they are including the spouse's income in the payment of restitution?
Also, how strict will they be in terms of restitution - will they allow you to live decently (not just barely) and allow you to accumulate some assets to pass along to your kids? I ask this because the restitution order I received was ridiculous and totally unfair - they based it on foreseeable damage.

Deaf Boy
05-14-2009, 07:39 PM
Another question - will the Feds ever negotiate the restitution downwards eventually to a reasonable amount so that you can move on with your life?
Frankly, with the monies recovered plus the victims' writeoffs against taxes, the victims will be made whole.

bigredglasses
05-17-2009, 07:27 PM
I cannot emphasize the importance of keeping the restitution agreement. Some of the financial litigation offics will obtain an administrative offset which if enforced will jeopardize even one-fourth of your social security payment. Tax returns, and, yes, even the stimulus is subject to garnishment due to certain offenses.

pphilpot
06-22-2009, 05:40 PM
Does it read that way in his J&C???, about the 80% I mean.

If not, payment will be set up by the federal litigation unit who does the collecting. They can't take what you don't have and you have to be allowed enough to live?


Hi

I have a 10% order for restitution during supervised release and I am about to be termed in 68 days....Can they increase it past the ordered 10%? After supervised release?

gantoris
08-19-2009, 07:33 PM
What happens if you move to another country after you get off your SR? Will they be able to get you to pay your restitution if you stop paying once you relocated? What would happen if someone did this and came back to the states to visit, could they arrest you?

kcsucks
09-05-2009, 06:13 PM
I get off SR in two weeks I have 290,000.00 in restitution I was ordered to pay 10% of my income in my J&C. I recived a letter in mail today saying that they put a garnishment on my check for 25% of my disposable income. I was never contacted about monthly payments they just went strait to the garnishment. Is it to late for me to try to make a deal with them for less money. I know it is a long shot but there is no way I can afford 25%. Does this also mean that they will be taking my tax returns also? Any advice, help would be great.

sassylatina
09-05-2009, 08:40 PM
They take 25% of your disposable Income......What do they consider Disposable Income?


I get off SR in two weeks I have 290,000.00 in restitution I was ordered to pay 10% of my income in my J&C. I recived a letter in mail today saying that they put a garnishment on my check for 25% of my disposable income. I was never contacted about monthly payments they just went strait to the garnishment. Is it to late for me to try to make a deal with them for less money. I know it is a long shot but there is no way I can afford 25%. Does this also mean that they will be taking my tax returns also? Any advice, help would be great.

chattycathy
09-23-2009, 05:41 PM
Based on my experience with the FLU, once you are off SR there is nothing they can or are going to do if you are not meeting your restitution payment. They can put a wage with-holding order in place IF you have a job and IF you are not already having child support with-held. IF you have an asset-something they can take..they may take it if they can locate it easily and without a lot of time/effort necessary on their part. They will put a federal lien on what you may own now or in the future. If you never own anything then there it sits. They are not interested in your spouse, your spouse's income or assets (even in community property states). The FLU in most states are overloaded with cases and very few people assigned to work on them. They rate the cases on a scale from 1-4. 1 cases are the priority cases. 4 cases are not given a second glance. Cases are revisited every four years. They simply do not have the time, money or other resources to pursue every one like a dog to a bone. They are not going to reprosecute you, put out a warrant for your arrest or put you back in prison. They are a joke. If you left the country owing restitution, enjoy your time. They are not going to come looking for you. Anyone with a different experience is free to share, but I have long given away any fear with regards to restitution.

willwwf
09-26-2009, 11:55 PM
If at sentencing you agreed to pay a certain amount, Can the FLU still go after your assets?

bianca313
10-16-2009, 06:26 PM
In December 2009, my boyfriend will be permitted to parole out of state if he is appoved and meets necessary criteria. I have paid his entire restitution because I was informed that this must be completed before his paperwork will be reviewd and processed. Will this increase his opportunity of a successful out of state transfer. In additon, can someone please inform me as to what other notarized documents are necessary to complete a successful out of state transfer bianca313

sorrynsad
10-18-2009, 08:55 PM
Hi there,

I will be going into federal prison for a white collar crime. I plead guilty and am probably looking at 36 months. The victim is the government. I did not pay withholding taxes to the government for my business....kept on thinking business would get better and I could take care of them later or make a deal, well found out the hard way that it was illegal to do so...

Anyway, the amount owed is around 6 million dollars....so my question for now is, how will this work. Let's say the judge says restitution is 10%? If my family gives me money for jail...so that I can purchase things....will I be able to? Or will they just take it away? or do they only take away $25/every quarter? I've seen very different things on the forum, and I just want to know if I will even be able to provide for myself, or if I won't be able to have any money, and will be the poorest sap in the camp/prison.

Please let me know what you guys think.

This forum is great. It is really helping me deal with the unknown.

Thanks,

SorryNSad

seeds
10-25-2009, 11:43 PM
Hi there,

I will be going into federal prison for a white collar crime. I plead guilty and am probably looking at 36 months. The victim is the government. I did not pay withholding taxes to the government for my business....kept on thinking business would get better and I could take care of them later or make a deal, well found out the hard way that it was illegal to do so...

Anyway, the amount owed is around 6 million dollars....so my question for now is, how will this work. Let's say the judge says restitution is 10%? If my family gives me money for jail...so that I can purchase things....will I be able to? Or will they just take it away? or do they only take away $25/every quarter? I've seen very different things on the forum, and I just want to know if I will even be able to provide for myself, or if I won't be able to have any money, and will be the poorest sap in the camp/prison.

Please let me know what you guys think.

This forum is great. It is really helping me deal with the unknown.

Thanks,

SorryNSad

Based on my experience, the judgement order stated that the 10% was payable after incarceration during supervised release. while incarcerated it stated participation in inmate financial responsibility which amounts to $25 per quarter. inmates are allowed $290 per month that wouldn't be "garnished" or however you would say that. if someone sends you more than $290 than that could be taken in theory to pay restitution.

sorrynsad
10-26-2009, 04:08 AM
Thanks !!

sassylatina
10-26-2009, 10:47 AM
Seeds.......would the $290 include money for Stamps, Phone Calls and E-mail or just commisary?

Thanks

persh
10-26-2009, 10:46 PM
Hi there,

I will be going into federal prison for a white collar crime. I plead guilty and am probably looking at 36 months. The victim is the government. I did not pay withholding taxes to the government for my business....kept on thinking business would get better and I could take care of them later or make a deal, well found out the hard way that it was illegal to do so...

Anyway, the amount owed is around 6 million dollars....so my question for now is, how will this work. Let's say the judge says restitution is 10%? If my family gives me money for jail...so that I can purchase things....will I be able to? Or will they just take it away? or do they only take away $25/every quarter? I've seen very different things on the forum, and I just want to know if I will even be able to provide for myself, or if I won't be able to have any money, and will be the poorest sap in the camp/prison.

Please let me know what you guys think.

This forum is great. It is really helping me deal with the unknown.

Thanks,

SorryNSad

Sorry to hear that... As a former jailhouse lawyer with six years of fed time who has a $2.5million restitution to pay, you might be in for some trouble AFTER you get out. They will make sure to force you to do a debtor's examination of your assets in order to make sure that the typical remedies are deployed. one of the worst (and most common) is the federal debt collection procedure act (FDCPA) which essentially is a free meal ticket for the feds to go into all aspects of your life (including: retirement accounts, inheritance, holding companies, etc).

Under the new law (MVRA), the judge does not have to consider your financial resources, and probably (most likely) will order full restitution, even though you plead guilty and probably got a reduced sentence. The restitution has to be equal to the damage that the government says you did. So, it's $6million that you owe the government if the judge is an a**hole and goes all the way. The idea of restitution is to make the "victim" whole and not necessarily expect that you will ever pay back the monies in their entirety.

Under the MVRA, your $6million will be treated as a tax lien and can be enforced for 20 years from when you get off paper. That is a heck of a long time - which should be sometime after 2030 in your case. Check out this case: US v. Ridgeway, 489 F.3d 732 (5th Cir 2007). This guy was taking care of his restitution as a gentleman's agreement with the people he defrauded, and the government still stuck it to him. He's under pre-MVRA law and this is happening.

My advice: do your time (don't let it do you) and get to reading in the library. Get a nice orderly job and make sure to keep the necessary commissary income low from family (but still steady). Keep good with the Case manager and do not piss them off. They have to review your individual finances to determine how the BOP can charge you for the inmate responsibility program (IRP). I think its pretty much set in stone until you start being stupid and getting a lot of money sent to you from home (i.e., $500/month) Stay modest. I could live pretty good on only $80/month... :)

BTW - They threaten you at the end of your sentence by claiming that they can affect everything at the Probation Office during your supervised release. In reality, the supervised release folks could care less about prison issues, they have compliance with court orders on their plate.

persh
10-26-2009, 11:10 PM
Based on my experience with the FLU, once you are off SR there is nothing they can or are going to do if you are not meeting your restitution payment. They can put a wage with-holding order in place IF you have a job and IF you are not already having child support with-held. IF you have an asset-something they can take..they may take it if they can locate it easily and without a lot of time/effort necessary on their part. They will put a federal lien on what you may own now or in the future. If you never own anything then there it sits. They are not interested in your spouse, your spouse's income or assets (even in community property states). The FLU in most states are overloaded with cases and very few people assigned to work on them. They rate the cases on a scale from 1-4. 1 cases are the priority cases. 4 cases are not given a second glance. Cases are revisited every four years. They simply do not have the time, money or other resources to pursue every one like a dog to a bone. They are not going to reprosecute you, put out a warrant for your arrest or put you back in prison. They are a joke. If you left the country owing restitution, enjoy your time. They are not going to come looking for you. Anyone with a different experience is free to share, but I have long given away any fear with regards to restitution.

Excellent post, chattycathy :) I guess i shouldn't tempt fate BUT... in 2005 I refused to cooperate with the FLU and divulge my finances via discovery and deposition as to my assets... Then, i objected to the proceedings as illegal under a set of cases which for me could arguably work (i.e., my old restitution from 1996 was not a "debt owing" to the government under the federal debt collection act) and we appealed to the 5th circuit and were denied due to a procedural appealability issue. the district court then issued a contempt order in 2005 for me to comply with discovery. I did nothing... And then - SILENCE for almost 5 years.

This open contempt order means nothing until the district judge actually imposes a sanction against me. The government has to ask the judge to do this (which they cannot seem to do)

the FLU just came back into my life in August 2009. the form letter they sent me didn;t even have the right name on it, and instead had some guy's name ("Mr. Sneed") wtf? lol

persh
10-26-2009, 11:29 PM
What happens if you move to another country after you get off your SR? Will they be able to get you to pay your restitution if you stop paying once you relocated? What would happen if someone did this and came back to the states to visit, could they arrest you?

Yes, "willful abandonment" of your restitution obligation is a federal crime, regardless of where in the world you live. Assuming that the DOJ and the FBI cares about your case (very doubtful unless you are a millionaire) - they will track you in your foreign country of choice (I like Costa Rica) from your SSN, passport, and bank accounts, etc.

The alternate case is more probable. If you foolishly ever come back to the US, the homeland folks will definitely have a red flag on you when you check in and they will kindly escort you to a quiet holding area in some remote part of the airport - then after they detain you and confirm who you are -- you'll probably be arrested...

persh
10-26-2009, 11:41 PM
FYI... one of my wifes cellies had her SR revoked because she applied for credit to buy a car. Her PO actually gave her verbal permission, but when the higher ups found out about it, her PO denied knowing anything about it and her SR was revoked and she has to spend the last 12 months back in the camp....Be careful and get everything in writing....

Looking for opinions on my own situation... My wifes lawyer suggested it was a good idea for us to divorce to protect me and my assets from the scrutiny of the FLU as well as her own debt that is going unpaid while she's locked up. He suggested she give me the house in the divorce as well. Now I'm concerned how her PO is going to feel about this and the possible repercussions.

She is serving a 12 month sentence and she went in 02/2009. The PO came by to check out the house last week and asked if it was ok for her to live here when released. I told him YES but I didn't mention the pending divorce. Her lawyer filed the divorce the day she went in and it will be final in the next week or so. I guess I'm just worried about further problems... I asked her lawyer if giving the house to me in the divorce would be looked at as hiding assets by the FLU, but he said it shouldn't be a problem... I guess I've just learned to expect the worst...

Interesting question: i was doing research on this precise point. My own opinion on this is that your wife's lawyer was correct in that strategic move. I would not, however, let your wife have any contact with you on paper whatsoever after she gets out. Have her live with another relative (not you) - for the simple reason that there is a bias toward spouses (or ex-spouses) as a means of hiding assets and other sundry lien-able property. You will be unduly scrutinized more so than another relative for discovery and other types of post-sentencing issues. Don't get into that - you will be sorry...

The question here is not what happened as to the divorce (i.e. transferring assets and moving property), rather what kinds of income could you potentially be hiding as an ex-spouse when your ex-wife gets out of prison? The presumption could be made by the U.S. attorney because you are letting her live in your place. They have a way of stretching things in directions you could have never thought of...

persh
10-26-2009, 11:58 PM
What happens if you you simply do not pay? The minimum rest. payment has been set. Can you be reprosecuted for non-payment or misrepresentation about assets and income?

Yes, the current sentencing jurisdiction can enforce the statutorily mandated criminal restitution by incarcerating you for "willful failure" to pay. They CANNOT put you in jail if you cooperate, even a few dollars a month as per your income. You are supposed to let the FLU know of any "material" changes in your income - "material" means anything a reasonable person would believe was a substantial change from what you pay now.

The only problem here is (once-again), the FLU is overloaded and cannot even begin to know or even guess how well you have been "honest" with them... It's really up to you how far you want to play with them, either honestly or not. If you choose the latter, you had better expect them to not really hold anything back in prosecuting you.

persh
10-27-2009, 12:13 AM
My boyfriend and I have been together for many years now, and he is in prison for the next 5 years. I am wondering what will hapen with the 300,000 dollars in restitution he is ordered to pay if we get marrried. I have a good paying job. Can they dock my pay? Will that make me responsible for his debts?
thanks!!
Aja

I would avoid commingling monies in any kind of engagement you have with this fellow. [Honestly - i hate to say things like this, but it might serve you better NOT to get married] :( I've seen situations where the government puts the spouse into lots of heartache for the mistakes of their partners. They love their partner at their own peril. It's not right, but it is the case with the feds.

The government cannot "in theory" come after you for your partner's restitution, but they can make the case that you are potentially shielding some of his liability and debt service to the government. They can probe into your assets, wages, liability in the hopes that they can convince the judge that you are paying a "living wage" for him. You may not receive a garnishment order, but you may be called to court to explain the extent of your business relations with him...

As i mentioned before, keep everything in your name. make no joint purchases. Do not share bank accounts. Do not even claim the same address: make him get a UPS store mail box (not P.O. box) and have his business go through that street address. He MUST use that mailbox for any type of business he conducts.

Good luck with your difficult situation... :)

persh
10-27-2009, 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gantoris
What happens if you move to another country after you get off your SR? Will they be able to get you to pay your restitution if you stop paying once you relocated? What would happen if someone did this and came back to the states to visit, could they arrest you?
--------------


I was assuming that he was still on probation... Under pre-MVRA law, the enforcement provisions of sec 3663(h) apply and allow the government to collect restitution as a "civil judgment" for up to 20 years from conviction. the government has recourse to civil provisions of law like depositions and hearings to compel your attendance... REALLY, all the judge has to do is issue a warrant for your arrest through the U.S. Marshall's service for no complying with their orders and what i mentioned in this post remains valid... persh

sorrynsad
10-27-2009, 05:07 AM
Persh,

Thanks for all of your insight above. So, after I get out, the trouble will begin! A couple of questions for you.

1) We have no assets now...we are wiped clean, so my wife will be starting from scratch. Will that be a problem for her? Could they still go after anything she earns after I get out?

2) I understand they will probably stay on my debt for 20 years after I get out, but what will they probably collect? 10% of my gross income? 20% of my gross?

3) If it is 10% or 20% that seems doable. But when would it increase? I mean, if I am making 50k a year....or if I am making 200k a year....will they move it up from 10% or 20% to 50%?

4) If I am a sole heir for my parents estate...which is not worth much, but in 10 years, if they pass, might be worth 500k - 750k, mostly from property...will the gov make me sell it? Should we just have my parents create a living trust that it goes to, that I can be a trustee of?

I know these are all speculative questions, and your answers are only your opinion...but they sure help me to think about and plan for unseen circumstances. I would love to be able to pay the gov back for this debt, and I will try my hardest to do that, but I need to make sure that I can provide for my family, and my kids education.

Thanks a ton!

SorryNSad

persh
10-30-2009, 07:54 PM
Persh,

Thanks for all of your insight above. So, after I get out, the trouble will begin! A couple of questions for you.

1) We have no assets now...we are wiped clean, so my wife will be starting from scratch. Will that be a problem for her? Could they still go after anything she earns after I get out?

2) I understand they will probably stay on my debt for 20 years after I get out, but what will they probably collect? 10% of my gross income? 20% of my gross?

3) If it is 10% or 20% that seems doable. But when would it increase? I mean, if I am making 50k a year....or if I am making 200k a year....will they move it up from 10% or 20% to 50%?

4) If I am a sole heir for my parents estate...which is not worth much, but in 10 years, if they pass, might be worth 500k - 750k, mostly from property...will the gov make me sell it? Should we just have my parents create a living trust that it goes to, that I can be a trustee of?

I know these are all speculative questions, and your answers are only your opinion...but they sure help me to think about and plan for unseen circumstances. I would love to be able to pay the gov back for this debt, and I will try my hardest to do that, but I need to make sure that I can provide for my family, and my kids education.

Thanks a ton!

SorryNSad

Inline:

(1) No they cannot go after her or her income or any other property or assets she accumulates after you are locked up and are released. The judgment is against you only and anything you possess or any type of income you earn. Remember: she should keep all of her possessions and assets in her name without you as a joint participant.

There are exceptions... for instance, if there are joint properties (non-homestead) between the two of you, the judge may order receivership and liquidation instituted by the government as part of an execution writ. after liquidation, she would keep her portion of the property as cash and your portion would go to the government. How that is split up is anyone's guess.

(2) I have no idea how the post-MVRA collections are being had with the USPOs around the country. They vary. one thing is certain, that the information the PO collects on you after release will be used to collect on the government's debt during supervised release. I think the only requirement for the amount they can collect is a "reasonable amount" (no case cite: sorry, but its from memory) - - SO, they cannot make you so poor that you are on the street (because then you cannot pay them at all) they want to get as much from your income as will not sting too much, and will make you compliant.

(3) when you change your income down or up you need to tell the PO. Or maybe just lie - in that case, they will not find out. But if they collect another finance report on you and there are contradictions, then you are in hot water... :) The PO will need to adjust accordingly your obligations.

I think to answer your question, they will ALWAYS increase the percentage of obligation per month the more you make. I guess, they can ask for more as a percent of you income, simply because you make more -- this isn't like bankruptcy where they want to keep your lifestyle at the same level before the government comes in... the USPO can care less about keeping a yacht lifestyle up and running :)

(4) Yes. SO-- make a living trust where everyone in your family except you is a beneficiary. Make it explicit that you cannot benefit from the trust at all. You should not be the trusee at all - it looks too suspicious, especially to the PO. With this case, your family is taken care of and the government can only collect what you make outside of the trust.

-P

sorrynsad
11-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Thanks again Persh...

One last question...

A person can be gifted 13k a year, without really declaring it on taxes....

What if my parents or the trust gifted me money (up to 13k a year) after I got out. In your opinion, would that need to be reported on the monthly forms?

Thanks for your help!!

SorryNSad

Federal PO
11-02-2009, 05:44 PM
Thanks again Persh...

One last question...

A person can be gifted 13k a year, without really declaring it on taxes....

What if my parents or the trust gifted me money (up to 13k a year) after I got out. In your opinion, would that need to be reported on the monthly forms?

Thanks for your help!!

SorryNSad

Yes, you would need to report that as income on your monthly report.

AllThrtl
11-02-2009, 10:06 PM
Interesting question: i was doing research on this precise point. My own opinion on this is that your wife's lawyer was correct in that strategic move. I would not, however, let your wife have any contact with you on paper whatsoever after she gets out. Have her live with another relative (not you) - for the simple reason that there is a bias toward spouses (or ex-spouses) as a means of hiding assets and other sundry lien-able property. You will be unduly scrutinized more so than another relative for discovery and other types of post-sentencing issues. Don't get into that - you will be sorry...

The question here is not what happened as to the divorce (i.e. transferring assets and moving property), rather what kinds of income could you potentially be hiding as an ex-spouse when your ex-wife gets out of prison? The presumption could be made by the U.S. attorney because you are letting her live in your place. They have a way of stretching things in directions you could have never thought of...


Thanks Persh...

We ended up not going thru with the divorce. My wifes lawyer was way to wishy-washy on what the possible repercussions might be. It just wasn't worth the risk. He started dancing around the issue claiming he couldn't really be sure of anything. Living with another relative, her mom, wasn't an option either. We have a son and she has 3 yrs SR, so we'll just have to deal with it as best we can. We already have seperate bank accounts and absolutely plan to keep everything completely seperate.

Another question... Her judgment states that she is to pay $500 per month in restitution, based on her income prior to going to jail. My assumption is that it will be re-evaluated after she goes back to work and adjusted accordingly. Is that correct? Is it possible that the PO may decide that she needs to pay more? The $500 will be impossible if she has to work for less than what she was making before going to jail. Honestly, even at the same pay, I'm not sure how she will be able to make that payment as well as the debts she defaulted on while in jail...

What happens if I refuse to disclose my income?

Her PO is a jerk. At the home visit many months ago, he tried to tell me her $100k restitution had to be paid in full by the time she got off SR in 3 yrs, so I needed to figure out what I was going to sell in order to make that happen because $500 a month wasn't going to get it done... I didn't respond to him and figured out at that point that it will be best for he and I not to have much interaction. His attempt at intimidation was lost on me...

She goes to HWH 5 wks from tomorrow...:D

sorrynsad
11-03-2009, 02:39 AM
Wow,

So the PO visits the home before we are even released from prison??? With a 6 million dollar debt, nothing to our name, and if a PO did that to my wife...well that would make her cry, be stressed out, and have a hard time.

Anyway...thanks guys for the above statements. From what I am learning, whatever I earn or bring in will need to be disclosed and will be subject to garnishment, whatever amount that is. This is fine.

I guess if my family needs extra money, they will need to earn it or get it in gifts, because whatever other people earn or receive is not necessarily able to be scrutinized or garnished by the government. Right?

Thanks!!

SorryNSad

AllThrtl
11-03-2009, 07:42 AM
Yes, they visit the home in preperation for release. I think they start working on that during the last 12mo of confinement. I think it's mostly to confirm it's an actual residence and to make sure it is ok that you live there once released. All the extra harrassment is just bonus for them...

persh
11-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Thanks Persh...

We ended up not going thru with the divorce. My wifes lawyer was way to wishy-washy on what the possible repercussions might be. It just wasn't worth the risk. He started dancing around the issue claiming he couldn't really be sure of anything. Living with another relative, her mom, wasn't an option either. We have a son and she has 3 yrs SR, so we'll just have to deal with it as best we can. We already have seperate bank accounts and absolutely plan to keep everything completely seperate.

Another question... Her judgment states that she is to pay $500 per month in restitution, based on her income prior to going to jail. My assumption is that it will be re-evaluated after she goes back to work and adjusted accordingly. Is that correct? Is it possible that the PO may decide that she needs to pay more? The $500 will be impossible if she has to work for less than what she was making before going to jail. Honestly, even at the same pay, I'm not sure how she will be able to make that payment as well as the debts she defaulted on while in jail...

What happens if I refuse to disclose my income?

Her PO is a jerk. At the home visit many months ago, he tried to tell me her $100k restitution had to be paid in full by the time she got off SR in 3 yrs, so I needed to figure out what I was going to sell in order to make that happen because $500 a month wasn't going to get it done... I didn't respond to him and figured out at that point that it will be best for he and I not to have much interaction. His attempt at intimidation was lost on me...

She goes to HWH 5 wks from tomorrow...:D

Well, you can't take blood out of a turnip!! I suspect that your biggest problem here is with the PO's attitude. Under an ideal situation, the PO would ask the judge to modify conditions of supervised released based on your wife's inability to pay the $500/month. Then, the judge would adjust and everything would be peachy keen. At this point, not talking to the PO is a good idea (i think) - this is advice that I would not ordinarily give, but there are times when not revealing too much is a good thing. :) NO - you do not have to pay all of the restitution before SR is completed (why would he say that??)

Anyway, I don't know how much power a PO has to compel your cooperation in the financial evaluation of your wife. Actually, I think all of this is a bunch of smoke... I would most definitely make sure that your wife was cooperative, but as for you - the government can't make you do anything - you were not convicted of any crime. A pissed off judge might yell at you, but that's about it... BUT let's not go there... :)

-P

AllThrtl
11-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Thanks again...

persh
11-10-2009, 05:05 PM
FEDERAL TAX LIENS, NOTICES OF LIENS UNDER 18 U.S.C. § 3613, MONEY JUDGMENTS IN FAVOR OF THE UNITED STATES – LIEN ATTACHMENT AND EFFECT ON ENTIRETIES PROPERTY

1. Introduction and short summary.

This article will address federal tax liens under 26 U.S.C. §6323 (2. below), notices of liens under 18 U.S.C. §3613 (3. below) and judgments in favor of the United States under 28 U.S.C. §3201, et seq. (4. below), regarding whether theses encumbrances attach to entireties property.

As indicated below, since federal tax liens (2. below) and liens under 18 U.S.C § 3613, including terrorism liens (3. below) are based on statutes that say the liens also attach to “rights to property” and not just “all property,” a lien against one spouse attaches to entireties property as discussed in 2. and 3. below, particularly because of the Craft case cited below. However, a judgment in favor of the United States discussed in 4. below against only one spouse does not attach apparently, for the reasons stated. It should be noted that encumbrances under 18 U.S.C § 3613 arise out of criminal liability, whereas 28 U.S.C. Title 28 judgments (discussed in 4.) are civil in nature. Also, it must be remembered that one reason for the different statutory language in Title 28 (discussed in 4.) is that Title 28 was drafted and enacted before in the infamous Craft decision. However, bring all 28 U.S.C. Title 28 judgments to our attention since some Assistant U.S. Attorneys seem to disagree.

Further, it is noted that as of this writing, there is pending an amendment to 26 U.S.C § 6323. See 2007 Cong. U.S. 2394, 110th Congress, 1st. Sess. (11‐16‐07). This would amend 26 U.S.C § 6323 (f)(1) to allow a tax lien to be filed in an internet based national federal registry under proposed new 26 U.S.C. § 6323 (k) instead of locally. Stay tuned.

2. Federal tax liens.

In our newsletter entitled, Husband and Wife Transactions: Title, Other Interests and Liens, at IV. B, we discussed in great detail the decision of U.S. v. Craft, 535 U.S. 274 (2002), and the I.R.S.’s Notice 2003‐60, 2003‐39 I.R.B. 643 (9/29/03), entitled “Collection Issues Related to Entireties Property.”

A summary of the lien attachment principles is as follows:

a. Federal tax lien docketed before 4‐18‐02 (Craft was decided on 4‐17‐02).
Example:
1. H&W take title as tenants by the entireties.
2. FTL docketed against H.
3. H & W convey for value to X.
4. Craft is decided.

IRS position: IRS will not assert its lien on X’s title. If X conveys for value to Y after Craft or if X mortgages to Y after Craft, such transferees are protected.

b. Federal tax lien docketed on or after 4‐18‐02.
Example:
1. H&W take title as tenants by the entireties.
2. FTL docketed against H.
3. Craft is decided.
4. H & W convey for value to X.

IRS position: IRS will assert its lien against X’s title (as held by X or by X’s successors, etc.).

It is noted that Craft has decided on the basis of 26 U.S.C § 6321, which states that the lien:
… shall be a lien in favor of the United States upon all property and rights to property, whether real or personal, belonging to such person.

26 U.S.C. § 6323 (a) requires the lien to be filed. 26 U.S.C § 6323(f)(1)(A) requires the lien to be filed with the clerk of superior court where the real property is located, due to G.S. 44‐68.12. 26 U.S.C. §6323 (f)(4)(A) requires indexing in accord with state law. See G.S. 44‐68.14(a).

It should be remembered that the period for a federal tax lien’s effectiveness is effectively 10 years and 30 days from the date of the assessment referenced in the lien because of refilling periods. 26 U.S.C. § 6502(a); 26 U.S.C. § 6323(g)(3). The lien can be refilled before that time expires. 26 U.S.C. § 6323(g)(3).

3. Notices of lien for fines, etc., pursuant to anti‐terrorism, etc., act and for criminal liabilities (18 U.S.C.A. § 3613).

These are treated like federal tax liens in 2. above. This is because of 18 U.S.C. §3613 generally and 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) (the lien “is a lien…on all property and rights to property” of the person fined). The italicized language in 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) is lifted directly from 26 U.S.C. § 6321, pertaining to attachment of federal tax liens. 26 U.S.C. § 6321 was construed in the Craft case noted in 2. above. This is our position and the U.S.’s position.

The lien must be filed, docketed and indexed in accord with state law. 18 U.S.C. §3613(d). That means docketing and indexing in accord with 2. above.

The lien is good for 20 years from entry or 20 years from release from imprisonment of the person fined, or upon the death of the person fined. 18 U.S.C. § 3613(b). Bankruptcy discharge has no effect. 18 U.S.C. § 3613(e).

The case of U.S. v. Godwin, 446 F.Supp.2d 425 (E.D.N.C. 2006), should be noted. On 4‐10‐01, W transferred to H real property held by H and W as tenants by the entirety. While the facts in the opinion are unclear, apparently at some point, apparently prior to the transfer, W still owed $100,465.71 pursuant to W’s “criminal judgment debt” reduced to an 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) judgment and restitution order against W. The government filed a fraudulent conveyance action against H pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 3301, et.seq. (including 28 U.S.C. §3306).

The court held that the criminal restitution judgment against W attached to the entirety property under 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) and under the Craft logic, since the rule under 11 U.S.C. §3613(c) is the equivalent of the federal tax lien act and the fraudulent transfer action against H was appropriate.

4. Money judgments in favor of the U.S. under Title 28 (28 U.S.C. §3201, et al).

This is treated as a state law money judgment and not as a federal tax lien, unlike in 2. and 3. above. So, a judgment lien against one spouse is not a lien on tenancy by the entireties property if the owners are still married. The reason is 28 U.S.C. §3201 which is phrased differently than 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) and 26 U.S.C. §6321. A judgment under 28 U.S.C. §3201 “shall create a lien on all real proper of a judgment debtor,” says 28 U.S.C. §3201(a) if filed “in the manner in which a notice of a tax lien would be filed” under 26 U.S.C.A §6323 (f). The reference to 26 U.S.C. §6323(f) is only to place of filing and indexing, not lien attachment. Note that 28 U.S.C. §3201 does not contain 26 U.S.C. §6321’s reference to “all property and rights to property” (see 2. above) which also appears in 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) (see 3. above), the words “and rights to property” being critical in the Craft case (see 2. above) as cited in Godwin (see 3. above). Also, see 18 U.S.C. 3613(a).

See, also, 28 U.S.C. §3010(a) which provides that a judgment lien against a debtor is a lien to be enforced “only to the extent allowed by the law of the state where the property is located.” That would be, incidentally, North Carolina law. Craft, discussed in 2. above and dealing with federal tax liens under 26 U.S.C. §6321 and 26 U.S.C. §6323 did not deal with federal judgments under Title 28 discussed in this 4. of this article.

Also, see 28 U.S.C. § 3014(a)(2)(B) which allows an individual debtor to exempt any interest in property in which the debtor had an interest as a tenancy by the entirety or joint tenant. Also, see 28 U.S.C. §3203(a).

Godwin, discussed in 3. above, did not deal with such a judgment.

Important: One Assistant U.S. Attorney disagreed with our analysis and felt that judgments discussed in 4. are treated like federal tax liens in 2. and liens in 3. No authority was cited and she seemed puzzled at our distinctions. We believe that that office has not carefully reviewed the wording of Title 28.

However, to avoid claims and unnecessary litigation, report all such judgments against one spouse and let us resolve the matter for you with the U.S. Attorney.

However, if a judgment is docketed, for example, against H only, and before that H conveyed his title to H and W, a possible fraudulent conveyance has occurred. This should be considered by the title underwriter. Fraudulent conveyances are discussed in 3. above. Also, see G.S. 39‐23.1, et seq., which can also be used by the government.

The judgment needs to docketed where a federal tax lien is docketed. 28 U.S.C. §3201(a). See 2. above.

The priority of a judgment lien “shall have priority over any other lien or encumbrance which is perfected later in time.” 28 U.S.C. §3201(b).

As to the duration of lien, 28 U.S.C. §3201(c) provides:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), a lien created under subsection (a) is effective, unless satisfied, for a period of 20 years.

(2) Such lien may be renewed for one additional period of 20 years upon filing a notice of renewal in the same manner as the judgment is filed and shall relate back to the date the judgment is filed if ‐‐‐
(A) the notice of renewal is filed before the expiration of the 20 year period to prevent the expiration of the lien; and
(B) the court approves the renewal of such lien under this paragraph.

AllThrtl
11-10-2009, 09:43 PM
Huh?

sorrynsad
11-11-2009, 05:37 AM
good info persh...but who is the lawyer in case anyone ever needs them, and ...ummm....I wish someone would just explain it in regular words....it got a little confusing for me....

;)

persh
11-12-2009, 05:31 PM
Big duh - sorry
By: Ed Urban, Title Counsel - Attorney's Title Co.

The article talks about how through 18 U.S.C. Sec. 3613 (which is where the MVRA points to in collection of restitution) the IRS can take away most assets under the idea of an instant "lien" on all your property by the U.S. government - this is why most everyone on this board convicted recently has received a "Notice of Lien". The point of the article is: There is some really bad mojo in these statutes when used together against debtors.

The article also talks a bit about husband and wife issues with respect to shared and transferable property - i.e., the Craft case, which involves shared assets for husband and wife and how the IRS can get their hands on tax owed by one of them.

A bit technical - yes, i know :)

gantoris
11-16-2009, 12:13 PM
Anyone know what the interest is that the attach onto peoples Federal Restitution? I keep hearing people say they can't even afford to pay the interest on their restitution every month and wanted to know what the rate what.

AllThrtl
11-16-2009, 10:47 PM
I think you only pay interest if the judge orders it. My wifes judgement says nothing about interest. YMMV...

zapato
11-17-2009, 04:24 AM
do you have to pay interest on restitution???
my bf owes 25,000 in restitution he is coming home in august if he doesnt get deported we are from ny will he have to pay interest on that 25,000???

seeds
11-26-2009, 07:44 AM
Seeds.......would the $290 include money for Stamps, Phone Calls and E-mail or just commisary?

Thanks

The $290 is for everything. An inmate can spend up to $75/month on phone charges, so if you can get a local numbered cell phone you can save about 15 cents a minute and use that money for other. The max minutes is 300 minutes per month no matter the cost, an extra 100 minutes in December.

Also, I had posted earlier they woud only take $25 per quarter as inmate financial responsibility. Well I just found out that after 6 months they look at how much money an inmate has received and then will adjust the amount they take. They are now taking $100 per month of the $290 that is received.

BlutifulScorpio
12-22-2009, 08:56 PM
The $290 is for everything. An inmate can spend up to $75/month on phone charges, so if you can get a local numbered cell phone you can save about 15 cents a minute and use that money for other. The max minutes is 300 minutes per month no matter the cost, an extra 100 minutes in December.

Also, I had posted earlier they woud only take $25 per quarter as inmate financial responsibility. Well I just found out that after 6 months they look at how much money an inmate has received and then will adjust the amount they take. They are now taking $100 per month of the $290 that is received.

Thanks seeds! I wish I had known this months ago! The judge told my mother that restitution would be payable following her release from custody. However, about 8 months in, the DOJ began deducting $125 a month. She was only receiving about $100 month to begin with! Now she gets close to $290 since I have to cover her $125/month. :mad: <<< Not mad at mom of course! Mad about the situation!

AllThrtl
12-23-2009, 09:19 AM
Here's a thread that gives examples of how it's figured. Our experience pretty much mirrored this at Carswell with the exception that she was teamed every 3 months and paid FRP quarterly instead of monthly, but the math works out the same.

IMHO, unless you have plenty of money to send your mom every month, she'll need to get realistic about what she absolutely has to have to get by everyday. No one "needs" soda's, cookies, snacks, makeup and stuff like that, the occasional treat is ok, but not everyday. My wife managed to get by with $25 a quarter in FRP all but once, and that time it was only $85.

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384078&highlight=IFRP

subzero
03-10-2010, 12:06 AM
Persh you have done a lot of work on this so I have two questions.

It would seem to me that the discretion in sentencing granted to judges should apply to restitution also and I was wondering if you have seen that argument along the way.

The other issue is maximum sentence structure which in my case was 10 years plus supervised release has turned into a life sentence through restitution which is criminal and civil but at the same time neither. I have never seen the issue looked at from that viewpoint either. If they say its criminal there has to be a maximum sentence structure. They say its criminal when they want to avoid bankruptcy issues then they say its civil when they want to avoid entanglement with criminal protections for felons. Tax liens under $300,000 can be suspended and terminated if they feel the money is noncollectable however even though restitution can be treated as a tax lien thats not true for restitution.

I would love to see a good MVRA case make it to the Scotus. This has repeal written all over it.

FEDERAL TAX LIENS, NOTICES OF LIENS UNDER 18 U.S.C. § 3613, MONEY JUDGMENTS IN FAVOR OF THE UNITED STATES – LIEN ATTACHMENT AND EFFECT ON ENTIRETIES PROPERTY

1. Introduction and short summary.

This article will address federal tax liens under 26 U.S.C. §6323 (2. below), notices of liens under 18 U.S.C. §3613 (3. below) and judgments in favor of the United States under 28 U.S.C. §3201, et seq. (4. below), regarding whether theses encumbrances attach to entireties property.

As indicated below, since federal tax liens (2. below) and liens under 18 U.S.C § 3613, including terrorism liens (3. below) are based on statutes that say the liens also attach to “rights to property” and not just “all property,” a lien against one spouse attaches to entireties property as discussed in 2. and 3. below, particularly because of the Craft case cited below. However, a judgment in favor of the United States discussed in 4. below against only one spouse does not attach apparently, for the reasons stated. It should be noted that encumbrances under 18 U.S.C § 3613 arise out of criminal liability, whereas 28 U.S.C. Title 28 judgments (discussed in 4.) are civil in nature. Also, it must be remembered that one reason for the different statutory language in Title 28 (discussed in 4.) is that Title 28 was drafted and enacted before in the infamous Craft decision. However, bring all 28 U.S.C. Title 28 judgments to our attention since some Assistant U.S. Attorneys seem to disagree.

Further, it is noted that as of this writing, there is pending an amendment to 26 U.S.C § 6323. See 2007 Cong. U.S. 2394, 110th Congress, 1st. Sess. (11‐16‐07). This would amend 26 U.S.C § 6323 (f)(1) to allow a tax lien to be filed in an internet based national federal registry under proposed new 26 U.S.C. § 6323 (k) instead of locally. Stay tuned.

2. Federal tax liens.

In our newsletter entitled, Husband and Wife Transactions: Title, Other Interests and Liens, at IV. B, we discussed in great detail the decision of U.S. v. Craft, 535 U.S. 274 (2002), and the I.R.S.’s Notice 2003‐60, 2003‐39 I.R.B. 643 (9/29/03), entitled “Collection Issues Related to Entireties Property.”

A summary of the lien attachment principles is as follows:

a. Federal tax lien docketed before 4‐18‐02 (Craft was decided on 4‐17‐02).
Example:
1. H&W take title as tenants by the entireties.
2. FTL docketed against H.
3. H & W convey for value to X.
4. Craft is decided.

IRS position: IRS will not assert its lien on X’s title. If X conveys for value to Y after Craft or if X mortgages to Y after Craft, such transferees are protected.

b. Federal tax lien docketed on or after 4‐18‐02.
Example:
1. H&W take title as tenants by the entireties.
2. FTL docketed against H.
3. Craft is decided.
4. H & W convey for value to X.

IRS position: IRS will assert its lien against X’s title (as held by X or by X’s successors, etc.).

It is noted that Craft has decided on the basis of 26 U.S.C § 6321, which states that the lien:
… shall be a lien in favor of the United States upon all property and rights to property, whether real or personal, belonging to such person.

26 U.S.C. § 6323 (a) requires the lien to be filed. 26 U.S.C § 6323(f)(1)(A) requires the lien to be filed with the clerk of superior court where the real property is located, due to G.S. 44‐68.12. 26 U.S.C. §6323 (f)(4)(A) requires indexing in accord with state law. See G.S. 44‐68.14(a).

It should be remembered that the period for a federal tax lien’s effectiveness is effectively 10 years and 30 days from the date of the assessment referenced in the lien because of refilling periods. 26 U.S.C. § 6502(a); 26 U.S.C. § 6323(g)(3). The lien can be refilled before that time expires. 26 U.S.C. § 6323(g)(3).

3. Notices of lien for fines, etc., pursuant to anti‐terrorism, etc., act and for criminal liabilities (18 U.S.C.A. § 3613).

These are treated like federal tax liens in 2. above. This is because of 18 U.S.C. §3613 generally and 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) (the lien “is a lien…on all property and rights to property” of the person fined). The italicized language in 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) is lifted directly from 26 U.S.C. § 6321, pertaining to attachment of federal tax liens. 26 U.S.C. § 6321 was construed in the Craft case noted in 2. above. This is our position and the U.S.’s position.

The lien must be filed, docketed and indexed in accord with state law. 18 U.S.C. §3613(d). That means docketing and indexing in accord with 2. above.

The lien is good for 20 years from entry or 20 years from release from imprisonment of the person fined, or upon the death of the person fined. 18 U.S.C. § 3613(b). Bankruptcy discharge has no effect. 18 U.S.C. § 3613(e).

The case of U.S. v. Godwin, 446 F.Supp.2d 425 (E.D.N.C. 2006), should be noted. On 4‐10‐01, W transferred to H real property held by H and W as tenants by the entirety. While the facts in the opinion are unclear, apparently at some point, apparently prior to the transfer, W still owed $100,465.71 pursuant to W’s “criminal judgment debt” reduced to an 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) judgment and restitution order against W. The government filed a fraudulent conveyance action against H pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 3301, et.seq. (including 28 U.S.C. §3306).

The court held that the criminal restitution judgment against W attached to the entirety property under 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) and under the Craft logic, since the rule under 11 U.S.C. §3613(c) is the equivalent of the federal tax lien act and the fraudulent transfer action against H was appropriate.

4. Money judgments in favor of the U.S. under Title 28 (28 U.S.C. §3201, et al).

This is treated as a state law money judgment and not as a federal tax lien, unlike in 2. and 3. above. So, a judgment lien against one spouse is not a lien on tenancy by the entireties property if the owners are still married. The reason is 28 U.S.C. §3201 which is phrased differently than 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) and 26 U.S.C. §6321. A judgment under 28 U.S.C. §3201 “shall create a lien on all real proper of a judgment debtor,” says 28 U.S.C. §3201(a) if filed “in the manner in which a notice of a tax lien would be filed” under 26 U.S.C.A §6323 (f). The reference to 26 U.S.C. §6323(f) is only to place of filing and indexing, not lien attachment. Note that 28 U.S.C. §3201 does not contain 26 U.S.C. §6321’s reference to “all property and rights to property” (see 2. above) which also appears in 18 U.S.C. §3613(c) (see 3. above), the words “and rights to property” being critical in the Craft case (see 2. above) as cited in Godwin (see 3. above). Also, see 18 U.S.C. 3613(a).

See, also, 28 U.S.C. §3010(a) which provides that a judgment lien against a debtor is a lien to be enforced “only to the extent allowed by the law of the state where the property is located.” That would be, incidentally, North Carolina law. Craft, discussed in 2. above and dealing with federal tax liens under 26 U.S.C. §6321 and 26 U.S.C. §6323 did not deal with federal judgments under Title 28 discussed in this 4. of this article.

Also, see 28 U.S.C. § 3014(a)(2)(B) which allows an individual debtor to exempt any interest in property in which the debtor had an interest as a tenancy by the entirety or joint tenant. Also, see 28 U.S.C. §3203(a).

Godwin, discussed in 3. above, did not deal with such a judgment.

Important: One Assistant U.S. Attorney disagreed with our analysis and felt that judgments discussed in 4. are treated like federal tax liens in 2. and liens in 3. No authority was cited and she seemed puzzled at our distinctions. We believe that that office has not carefully reviewed the wording of Title 28.

However, to avoid claims and unnecessary litigation, report all such judgments against one spouse and let us resolve the matter for you with the U.S. Attorney.

However, if a judgment is docketed, for example, against H only, and before that H conveyed his title to H and W, a possible fraudulent conveyance has occurred. This should be considered by the title underwriter. Fraudulent conveyances are discussed in 3. above. Also, see G.S. 39‐23.1, et seq., which can also be used by the government.

The judgment needs to docketed where a federal tax lien is docketed. 28 U.S.C. §3201(a). See 2. above.

The priority of a judgment lien “shall have priority over any other lien or encumbrance which is perfected later in time.” 28 U.S.C. §3201(b).

As to the duration of lien, 28 U.S.C. §3201(c) provides:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), a lien created under subsection (a) is effective, unless satisfied, for a period of 20 years.

(2) Such lien may be renewed for one additional period of 20 years upon filing a notice of renewal in the same manner as the judgment is filed and shall relate back to the date the judgment is filed if ‐‐‐
(A) the notice of renewal is filed before the expiration of the 20 year period to prevent the expiration of the lien; and
(B) the court approves the renewal of such lien under this paragraph.

Milt
04-07-2010, 09:29 PM
I have been paying restitution for over 10 years - I was sentenced in 1999, served 2 yrs. Restitution is complicated, but in essence, I had $140K, joint and several with 4 other co-defendants.

I have a real cool person I have dealt with at the FLU over the past 10 years. I always call her, she is respectful, I have always paid the agreed amount on time and she has even allowed suspension of any payment at times when I have had "slow" employment. But now money is tight and I need to explore some other options. (I am also getting supremely pissed off that I am basically the only one of the 5 co-defs paying the restitution - that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.)

I somehow managed to hold onto an investment property throughout all this (bought it in 1997). The feds have been willing to work with me on selling it and even considering the idea of allowing me to keep perhaps 50% of the equity upon sale (to pay down some other debt so I can pay them more). BTW, I am talking about a total equity upon sale of between $20k and $80k.

To sum up the situation, I provided them with the info they asked for but they are now wishy-washy on the 50% and they want more info, etc. etc.

So now I have this thought - maybe I don't need their permission to get the 50%. I don't know why I didn't explore this earlier, but maybe my wife's interest is protected in a sale.

She married into her ownership interest - I owned it before we got married. But, we got married after the feds restitution judgment was in place.

My state recognizes ownership of real property with a husband and wife as - one spouse can buy, but both spouses have to agree to sell; better known as "one to buy - two to sell.". So, I can't sell without her consent/signature on the deed transfer, and the same rules apply to her. This is true even though she married into it.

I know it's messy - the chain of events; when I bought it, when the judgment was placed, when we got married, etc. But maybe this chain of events doesn't matter. Maybe, she has 50% ownership and that's that.

What do y'all think?

By the way, I think this is such an awesome site. I can't believe I just found it today. Wow.

wooddust
05-03-2010, 02:43 PM
I was convicted of mail fraud prior to the enactment of the MVRA of 1996. I have read in numerous places that collection and enforcement of restitution is different for those convicted prior to the date of enactment. But I am unable to find "what" exactly is different. I've spoken to several lawyers who all go away scratching their heads. and want gobs of money to research the issue. Ever hear anything like this before? Would you know where I could find info on the law as it applied to my sentencing in early (< April 24) 1996? I've checked the EOUSA reading room and the USAG manuals. But I can't find anything from that time period. Thanks for you help.


For all of those facing restitution -

I know many of you are looking at large amounts of restitution that you are being ordered to pay and thinking -"I will never be able to pay this off in a hundred million years" You are right, you won't.

But the federal government knows that too, and they don't expect that it will all be paid back. They will though try to get as much of it for the victim as they can.

When you are released you will be asked to fill out a number of forms disclosing assets, income (including income from spouse and dependants living at home) etc.

You will be asked to fill them out for both the Federal Litigation Unit in your state and for your probation officer. Your restitution payment will be based on your answers here. It is important for you to be honest when filling out these forms as it is "under oath" and states that on the forms. There is no asset worth going back to prison for.

List all living expenses and leave nothing out, include a grocery/per month estimate, a clothing estimate, if a member of the family has ongoing medical expenses, include the deductible that you know you will be paying. These are real expenses and are not unreasonable, do not overinflate them to huge amounts that are not believeable..(allowing for a mink coat wouldn't fly..lol)
The FLU/Feds will consider all of these expenses but will deduct what they think are unnessary luxuries ie cable movie channels. If you have a lot of assets even if they are not in your own name (for instance if spouse has 6 cars in his/her name) they will not force him/her to necessarily sell them but they will be considered that they are available asssets that "could reasonably be sold to pay household expenses. This does not mean that you go out and put them in someone elses name...ILLEGAL under the circumstances.

When all is said and done what is left over is disposable income and from that comes your restitution payment.

As many of you have seen in my posts, I have chosen not to disclose my income and have not yet seen a reprecussion from it and do not think that I will. We did though list all assets. As far as garnishing from wages, they can garnish your states maximum amount and will IF YOU DO NOT PAY your required amount. They will give you that chance first though.

Just because on your judgement and commitment order there is an oredered amount "during time of probation or supervised release" does not release you from the liability when it is over. They just can't throw you back in prison anymore. They can and will try to collect. The FLU has the power to try to collect for 20 years and can renew for another 20 if they so choose.

You will no doubt have liens on your home even if it is in your spouses name, they will in the event of a sale take your share of the equity, your spouse has the right to his/hers.

In a nutshell, the government will allow you enough money to live, not extravagatnly, but you will not starve. Many will have to change their lifestyles somewhat, but you will survive this too. We have just gone through all of this and I am actually happy with the outcome, we are not vacationing and spending money all over the place, but we are comfortable and not suffering in any way.

Those that have not even surrendered yet, do not worry about this right now..it doesn't matter and it like everything else is one more hurdle that you will get through when the time comes. Enjoy your time with your families while you have it and know that at some point this will really all be overwith.
"This too will pass"

If you have any questions, let me know.

missuleroi
05-04-2010, 10:33 AM
Anyone have info on hwh for women in texas? I heard that they are less than desireable. I am wondering if the tales I hear are true? I sure hope not...lol

Uzizitka
05-12-2010, 03:56 PM
You have to apply for a passport of course and as a us citizen you are netitled to one - you can travel to every country in europe without a problem and if you fancy stay - it would help if you had a european girlfriend lol
canada will not have you unless very rich and new zealand is on a case to case basis but i would write to the embassy to be sure xx enjoy your travels xxx

Ptntl Camper
07-05-2011, 04:41 PM
I have a question. My income at time of my plea/sentencing was about $5k per month, including child support. It is now down to close to $2K per month. I have been paying $500 per month, but that has left very little for all expenses. What are my chances of having that amount reduced, and what possible consequences are there that I am not thinking of??? Thank you!

mburton000
07-05-2011, 09:02 PM
If you are on supervision,discuss with PO. If not, discuss with FLU. If on probation, non-payment can lead to prison. If not, non-payment can lead to wage garnishement, bank levy, and liens on property.

Wage garnishment is usually capped in most states as a percentage of gross income so you may actually pay less that route but the FLU should work with you.

MrFrustrated
08-18-2011, 12:41 PM
My mother was ordered to pay restitution in the amount of $160K which started in 2004, the DOJ started by taking a lump sum pmt of $90K from my deceased father's pension (who was not part of my mother's crime and he was a government employee) and for the first year of the survivor's annuity that my mother was going to get they took all of that money so she only had social security disability to live on, then after a year the DOJ decided to release $300/month of the annuity to my mother, she has had a hard time living off of this due to poor health and medical needs, so I had her move in with me as of a year ago, she requested to have some more money from the annuity released and sent in requested docs (bills, rent, medical expenses, etc.) and they only gave her a $100 increase. They are taking about 39% of her income for restitution. So now it's a year later and she is requesting for them to release some more money because we are barely able to pay our rent and buy groceries and just get by. Out of the $160K she was ordered to pay she only has a balance of $31000 left to pay. What is the best way for her to request to have more money released to her out of the money they are taking? We are on the verge of being put out on the street because we can't pay all of our bills, I'm a full time student and just get money from student loans to just cover tuition and books, nothing else. I also work part time to help pay the bills but I pay child support as well. Would trying to get an attorney help her case or would it just be a waste of time? Thanks.

TheClerk
10-13-2011, 10:17 AM
I am in the middle of a 3 year SR period. I have a restitution amount of $2.5 - I know - crazy stuff. Obviously there is no way that I will ever be able to pay this amount. I am currently paying the $500 per month court ordered amount, and all of my assets have been liquidated. I own nothing, have nothing - except a weekly paycheck and a retirement account. Which brings me to my reason for posting - can the Government seize a retirement account and apply the proceeds toward restitution? Additionally, are felons eligible receive social security payments? Any information would be very helpful.....

Tried&True
10-13-2011, 10:52 AM
An interesting question. Have you asked these questions of your PO? From what I can gather doing research for my MWI who will have restitution payment also, the should not take your retirement account as long as you keep up your scheduled payments. If they were going to take it, they would have seized it by now.
Social security, I don't know, but it seems that if you paid into it, you should be eligible to collect at 62.

wileyswomn
10-21-2011, 07:29 PM
My husband is currently one month into serving 4 years in a federal prison camp and my bank accounts were frozen this past week. I have been told that my car is going to be taken. Also my husband has a retirement income that I depend on for survival. I have been my husbands dependent for 31 years. I am currently in school trying to get a technical certification to be able to work. We lived in Florida at the time of the imprisonment, We sold our house and I have since moved to Michigan. What part of the assets am I entitled to? Who do I contact for help? Thank you.

mike11
11-29-2011, 10:59 PM
Hi my name is Michael. I have a question regarding my court date and restitution. I am giving them $1500 when i go to court but I am un-employed and dont really have any more money to give. I guess I'm looking for advice on what I should do when I go to court. my e-mail is cpostmelvi@hotmail.com thanks

Jamesisback
05-06-2012, 05:02 PM
I just received a letter about an informational meeting the Monetary Penalties Unit (formerly FLU). I am set to be off SR Dec 24 the meeting is set for June, that seems really early. Anyways, right now I owe 300 plus thousand dollars I am being garnished for 20%, I have sole custody of my kids and I am already receiving state assistance (Food stamps, and medicaid), I am concerned about continueing to pay this 20% after supervised release, I think it should be 10 but Im not gonna get in a pissing match with my PO about it, Id just as soon never ask him a question at all. Any ideas on what to do?

burntbean
05-06-2012, 06:42 PM
My husband is currently one month into serving 4 years in a federal prison camp and my bank accounts were frozen this past week. I have been told that my car is going to be taken. Also my husband has a retirement income that I depend on for survival. I have been my husbands dependent for 31 years. I am currently in school trying to get a technical certification to be able to work. We lived in Florida at the time of the imprisonment, We sold our house and I have since moved to Michigan. What part of the assets am I entitled to? Who do I contact for help? Thank you.

Were these joint accounts? Is your husband's name on the vehicle? They cannot freeze your accounts if you are the sole signor on the account, and I don't see how they can take your car either unless they can tie it to the crime somehow.

Jamesisback
06-11-2012, 03:57 PM
Big duh - sorry
By: Ed Urban, Title Counsel - Attorney's Title Co.

The article talks about how through 18 U.S.C. Sec. 3613 (which is where the MVRA points to in collection of restitution) the IRS can take away most assets under the idea of an instant "lien" on all your property by the U.S. government - this is why most everyone on this board convicted recently has received a "Notice of Lien". The point of the article is: There is some really bad mojo in these statutes when used together against debtors.

The article also talks a bit about husband and wife issues with respect to shared and transferable property - i.e., the Craft case, which involves shared assets for husband and wife and how the IRS can get their hands on tax owed by one of them.

A bit technical - yes, i know :)

I have a question about wage garnishment, I have 6 months left on probation, the way I understand it from the United States Dept. of Labor website title III is that if I make less than 217.50 a week after taxes, they are not allowed to take anything, after taxes my bi-weekly checks are under 435.00I am on state aid and they told my employer to take 25% of my net wages even though according to the Department of Labor if I make less than 217.50 a week, they can not take any and what they have taken above that amount should be paid back to me because it was illegal. Should I wait until I am off paper so it doesnt cause problems with my PO etc?

Jamesisback
06-17-2012, 12:58 PM
Is there a reason I dont get replies on anything I post?

persh
08-08-2012, 11:03 PM
I have a question about wage garnishment, I have 6 months left on probation, the way I understand it from the United States Dept. of Labor website title III is that if I make less than 217.50 a week after taxes, they are not allowed to take anything, after taxes my bi-weekly checks are under 435.00I am on state aid and they told my employer to take 25% of my net wages even though according to the Department of Labor if I make less than 217.50 a week, they can not take any and what they have taken above that amount should be paid back to me because it was illegal. Should I wait until I am off paper so it doesnt cause problems with my PO etc?

Is there a reason I dont get replies on anything I post?

Sorry - I'm checking this here and there as I have time. Life gets in the way of helping out - I've been off SR since 2004, so not really too active in the fed legal community. yes, I know, that's no excuse... :)

The DOL reference you make is here http://www.dol.gov/whd/garnishment/ and it references the CCPA, which was addressed in the context of the MVRA in US v. Lee (7th Cir, 2011) From the case:

Specifically, the MVRA allows the government to enforce restitution fines “against all property or rights to property of the person fined.” 18 U.S.C. § 3613(a). But, enforcement is not without limits and the CCPA establishes a garnishment ceiling of 25% of a debtor's “disposable earnings” for a week, or the amount by which the debtor's disposable earnings for that week exceed 30 times the federal minimum hourly wage, whichever is less. 15 U.S.C. § 1673(a).“Disposable earnings” are defined as “that part of the earnings of any individual remaining after the deduction from those earnings any amounts required by law to be withheld.” 15 U.S.C. § 1672(b). The CCPA, in turn, defines “earnings” as “compensation paid or payable for personal services, whether denominated as wages, salary, commissions, bonus, or otherwise, and includes periodic payments pursuant to a pension or retirement program.” 15 U.S.C. § 1672(a) (emphasis added).
Public assistance is not considered "earnings" for wage garnishment. http://www.publiccounsel.org/tools/publications/files/2011-Wage-Garnishment-Packet.pdf SO: the only amount of "earnings" considered is non-state assistance wages after taxes. The above law states the ratios and maximum that they can take from you legally. They can tell your employer to take out wages only to the maximum allowed. Any excess is not allowed by law.

Of course, the feds are always trampling on people, so it maybe the case that they take more than they should - your option is to sue once you pay the first payment from your wages if they are indeed too large. A possible outcome might (I say "might") be repayment of overages... Not sure about that or know how that would work.... I would not mess with this during your SR - just play along and wait until you are off paper. It's a lot easier then and the consequences of failing are a lot less. An angry PO can make your life miserable and it's just not worth the chance. They have the upper hand when you are on SR, but you have it once you are off SR. That's my 2 cents...

compumise
09-16-2012, 10:26 PM
Can the FLU make you pay more than the Judge ordered in the J&C? Mine says $50/month. Can Probation make you pay more while on SR?

Jamesisback
11-04-2012, 09:03 PM
I have the department of labor involved, but I figured the same thing.... Just pay what they want till Im off paper. They are going to investigate my US atty office, and mentioned me getting paid back for the overages. Assholes can get a little of what they dish out. I cant wait to have the upper hand, but Ill have patience for now.... Your take was exactly the same as mine. They arent ging to be happy when their entire office is being investigated by another government agency. My D.O.L. agent is shocked that they are doing this, and sounds very gungho to move forward.

nycdon420
12-10-2012, 10:38 AM
I have a question that's been bugging the shit out of me maybe someone can help me? Back in 2004 i got sentenced to 36 months fed time, 3 yrs supervised release and a $200,000 restitution fee. I finished my supervised release like 2 yrs ago and i stopped making my monthly payments which was supposed to be $50 a month. Haven't heard nothing from anybody no mail or nothing about it . I checked my credit report a month ago and under inquiries was ( CBS/US ATTY/MARYLAND ) my case was in Baltimore M.D . Why were they checking my credit report?are they planning something?looking for me maybe? Where i live at now, nobody knows i don't get any mail here or nothing so it would be kind of hard for them to find me if they were looking for me that's why it has me bugging out .I really appreciate any help thank u for your time. P.s : also i have a new Mercedes financed on my name so i know they probably didn't like to see that in my credit report lol ,, oh yea and also what does CBS mean in CBS/US ATTY/MARYLAND ?:confused::confused:

sr3737
12-10-2012, 10:52 AM
At this time all they can do is put a lien on you so you have to be careful what is in your name

kittywill
01-15-2013, 07:52 PM
If you are married can they mess with our house or vehicles if they are in my husbands name? Plus my ex boss is filing a civil suit through the county to try and recover money from the cc company and bank.

Ptntl Camper
01-31-2013, 12:43 PM
I am in the middle of a 3 year SR period. I have a restitution amount of $2.5 - I know - crazy stuff. Obviously there is no way that I will ever be able to pay this amount. I am currently paying the $500 per month court ordered amount, and all of my assets have been liquidated. I own nothing, have nothing - except a weekly paycheck and a retirement account. Which brings me to my reason for posting - can the Government seize a retirement account and apply the proceeds toward restitution? Additionally, are felons eligible receive social security payments? Any information would be very helpful.....

Not sure if you're still looking for info here, but US Atty's office seized my IRA this summer. :-(