Prison Talk

Prison Talk (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/index.php)
-   Death Row & Capital Punishment Discussions (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=66)
-   -   Feds to Resume Capital Punishment After Nearly 20yrs (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719084)

miamac 07-25-2019 02:51 PM

Feds to Resume Capital Punishment After Nearly 20yrs
 
Attorney General William P. Barr Directs the Federal Bureau of Prisons to Adopt an Addendum to the Federal Execution Protocol and Schedule the Executions of Five Death-Row Inmates Convicted of Murdering Children
[...]
The Federal Execution Protocol Addendum, which closely mirrors protocols utilized by several states, including currently Georgia, Missouri, and Texas, replaces the three-drug procedure previously used in federal executions with a single drug—pentobarbital. Since 2010, 14 states have used pentobarbital in over 200 executions, and federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have repeatedly upheld the use of pentobarbital in executions as consistent with the Eighth Amendment.



full press release here




yourself 07-25-2019 04:07 PM

I knew this was going to happen. Trump will enjoy all the attention, look “tough on crime” and flex his muscle by directing others to kill for him. I am only surprised that it has taken this long. And expect him to extol the virtues of his executions at his little rallies. 20 years - that is a lot of presidents not killing people because the federal death penalty is messed up.

patchouli 07-25-2019 06:22 PM

5 executions in as many weeks. I try, I really do try not to be political here on PTO. However: If you're registered to vote VOTE in 2020. If you are not registered, but are eligible to register, register, and VOTE in 2020. Barr was appointed by #NMP tRump. If one domino falls, they all fall. VOTE.

Itshardtowait 07-26-2019 01:55 AM

I have some questions, In state executions is it true that citizens from any walk of life may sign up to push the button? Is this the same in Federal executions also? I know the Warden gives the signal to push the button. What I guess I’m trying to ask is what kind of a person would want to do this? What do they get out of it? This is so disturbing to me, I read what these people did, but how does that make it different from the person pushing the button and the Warden giving the signal. Other than they don’t get prosecuted for doing it? And why are they doing this at Christmas time(not that anytime is right) but the folks being executed most likely still have family that will be effected by this, of course I read that it’s to bring justice for the victims family, but I don’t think that’s what they would want for Christmas either. Maybe I just don’t think like other people. These people have been on Death row for such along time, they have an awful existence, isn’t that enough just to keep them on Death Row? I couldn’t push the button

fbopnomore 07-26-2019 04:10 PM

When Saddam was hung in Iraq, I wondered if our VP or former Defense Secretary (the one who said our soldiers would be greeted with flowers and parades; 4424 US dead, 31,952 wounded in action) was the one wearing the executioner's hood. Except politicians send others into harms way while they find a way to avoid military service. The VP said he was too important.

miamac 07-26-2019 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itshardtowait (Post 7787111)
I have some questions, In state executions is it true that citizens from any walk of life may sign up to push the button? Is this the same in Federal executions also? I know the Warden gives the signal to push the button. What I guess I’m trying to ask is what kind of a person would want to do this? What do they get out of it?

The documentary, Into the Abyss (W. Herzog) has an interview portion with DR staff and he talks about developing PTSD from the job.

I don't want to link to the video, but if you put this phrase 'documentary texas death row employee hertzog' into YouTube search, they have it there and I believe it's on Netflix.

patchouli 07-26-2019 05:10 PM

Itshardtowait, no, as far as I know the general public cannot sign-up, draw straws, or in other way volunteer to push the button or hit the switch. The drugs are injected, I'm fairly positive that who ever is hired to administer the lethal combination will have to have medical credentials.

Why at Christmas? Because this is the most narcissistic administration the U.S. has ever seen.....they not only want to hurt certain demographics, but I think they also try to get as much collateral damage as they can.

yourself 07-26-2019 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchouli (Post 7787244)
Itshardtowait, no, as far as I know the general public cannot sign-up, draw straws, or in other way volunteer to push the button or hit the switch. The drugs are injected, I'm fairly positive that who ever is hired to administer the lethal combination will have to have medical credentials.

Why at Christmas? Because this is the most narcissistic administration the U.S. has ever seen.....they not only want to hurt certain demographics, but I think they also try to get as much collateral damage as they can.

Mostly, they are EMTs as everybody else takes an oath to do no harm. This is one of the reasons that lethal injection has been difficult to administer. In a few states, they have had nurses and I think one doctor jump the line and actually participate in an execution, but mostly you have phlebotomists and EMTs as the level of medical education inserting IVs.

Generally, more than one CO is responsible for pushing the button. This is the “plausible deniability” thing that follows the same line of reasoning as putting a blank in one of the guns in a firing squad execution - nobody knows if you killed the guy or your buddy next to you did.

The CO pushing the button does not have to have any medical knowledge.

Why Christmas? Think in terms of news and the democratic primaries. He is trying to take over the news cycle and take away from whomever takes the nomination. This is also why there is no execution on Christmas.

He is going, “tough on crime”. He is taking out a few of the death sentences earned by the Ashcroft years. Note, a lot of them are Midwest convictions. He wants to make sure he gets the Midwest vote. And, he gets another rush from all the petitions for clemency, etc, that just feeds that narcissist.

I am sorry - this is just cheap politics.

miamac 07-26-2019 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fbopnomore (Post 7787236)
Except politicians send others into harms way ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourself (Post 7787264)
[...]

Why Christmas? Think in terms of news and the democratic primaries. He is trying to take over the news cycle and take away from whomever takes the nomination. This is also why there is no execution on Christmas.

He is going, “tough on crime”. He is taking out a few of the death sentences earned by the Ashcroft years. Note, a lot of them are Midwest convictions. He wants to make sure he gets the Midwest vote. And, he gets another rush from all the petitions for clemency, etc, that just feeds that narcissist.

I am sorry - this is just cheap politics.

...at a very high cost from people who can't be bothered to be personally affected.

yourself 07-27-2019 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamac (Post 7787265)
...at a very high cost from people who can't be bothered to be personally affected.

Personally, I can't help but feel for the families and staff who are going to have to experience this just before the holidays. What a really screwed up thing to do to these people.

Itshardtowait 07-27-2019 05:04 PM

EMTs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by patchouli (Post 7787244)
Itshardtowait, no, as far as I know the general public cannot sign-up, draw straws, or in other way volunteer to push the button or hit the switch. The drugs are injected, I'm fairly positive that who ever is hired to administer the lethal combination will have to have medical credentials.

Why at Christmas? Because this is the most narcissistic administration the U.S. has ever seen.....they not only want to hurt certain demographics, but I think they also try to get as much collateral damage as they can.

I had to look in to The Who actually inserts the IV and who administers the lethal medication or medications, In the state of Montana all you have to be is a EMT basic, with an IV certificate, and you actually can sign up to do this, they pay them $250 for their service, A Doctor can not and will not do an Execution, due to the hypocritical oath they take. I just wonder if it’s like this in all states? and Federal?

fbopnomore 07-27-2019 06:36 PM

The bop also has EMTs in charge of some of their off-hours prison medical offices. At FCI Loretto, a 20-something inmate collapsed on the baseball field. About 15 minutes later, the on duty paramedic sauntered in with absolutely no medical gear, looked at the prisoner and announced, as he walked away, "carry him to the hospital". The inmate died.

No paramedic anywhere in the world would have mistreated a cardiac incident in that way.

At his funeral service, the Chaplain said "he died at the hospital" to which I replied "if he had been at a hospital, he wouldn't have died". Naturally the bop slammed a lid on what happened to cover it up.

Itshardtowait 07-27-2019 07:01 PM

I had a lot written but nothing seemed to convey what I want to say. My heart hurts for people, and politics shouldn’t enter into it, and I wish karma would catch up with so many people and that damn Paramedic. My youngest son is a Paramedic and he would never deny anyone care, ever. I just couldn’t ever live with myself if I turned into a Monster like them.

yourself 07-27-2019 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itshardtowait (Post 7787339)
I had to look in to The Who actually inserts the IV and who administers the lethal medication or medications, In the state of Montana all you have to be is a EMT basic, with an IV certificate, and you actually can sign up to do this, they pay them $250 for their service, A Doctor can not and will not do an Execution, due to the hypocritical oath they take. I just wonder if it’s like this in all states? and Federal?

Inserting an IV is not the same as pushing drugs into the system of the person being executed.

It is the Hippocratic Oath, named after Hippocrates, father of medicine. The first part of it states that a physician shall do no harm. The AMA has issued an opinion that physicians participating directly in executions would be violating this oath, and that could result in the loss of a license.

Hypocritical means a false appearance, and while that applies to some doctors (and some of every profession), it doesn't apply to most. If you were being sarcastic in the use of this term instead of Hippocratic, then sorry I am writing this.

Despite the AMA's position, physicians have participated in executions. It is rare, and the vast majority of IVs are started by EMTs. Again this is different from actually pressing the button that starts the mechanism that pushes the plungers of drugs into the system of people, thereby killing them. While this is dated 2006, it does detail a few physician experiences in execution participation. https://ethics.harvard.edu/event/exc...tion-prisoners

The question is one of at what point do your hands become dirty in the death penalty process? Is the CO pushing the button at the direction of the warden dirty? Is the EMT putting the catheter into the vein of the condemned dirty? Are the guards who strap him down dirty? Is the chaplain holding his ankle dirty? Are the guards at the prison keeping him in a cell dirty? Is the governor who fails to pardon the guy dirty? Is the governor dirty for signing the death warrant?

Interestingly, juries who feel least responsible for a death verdict are more likely to deliver that death verdict. Those who understand that but for their verdict, the guy would live in prison for the rest of his life are less likely to deliver that verdict as they tend to feel culpable in the murder of a person. There is a death penalty jury project at SUNY Albany that has researched this, and the findings are interesting. But it gets into the whole aspect of personal culpability in the killing of another human being, and that is part of the hands dirty question.

Parents of those on death row frequently feel culpable both in the actions of their children that led to a death sentence, as well as culpable in the death of their own kids.

Itshardtowait 07-27-2019 07:51 PM

After reading what you wrote, my hypocritical misspelling of Hippocratic oath, should stay as it is, they are all Dirty and they are all culpable in one way or another, My heart goes out to the Parents, the Government is killing their child, and people are helping. Gross misconduct at every level. I read the article, I just don’t understand why they don’t feel responsible for the death that they were part of? Twisted Minds

Taliba00 07-28-2019 12:34 AM

A lot of the staff at my husband's facility are former military, so killing 'the bad guys' is part of their training and mindset and culture.

It isn't fair to blame staff; they are simply enacting the laws that we, as a nation, instituted, and are running the system that we, collectively, put into place. Trump may not be popular in this thread, but he was popular enough with the majority of people during the 2016 election. There is quite a bit of blood lust among ordinary people, and I'm willing to bet that many would volunteer to push the plunger if they could. On the other hand, there are some staff who are traumatized by their jobs. The CO mentioned in the Herzog film was a poignant example.

patchouli 07-28-2019 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliba00 (Post 7787366)
A lot of the staff at my husband's facility are former military, so killing 'the bad guys' is part of their training and mindset and culture.

It isn't fair to blame staff; they are simply enacting the laws that we, as a nation, instituted, and are running the system that we, collectively, put into place. Trump may not be popular in this thread, but he was popular enough with the majority of people during the 2016 election. There is quite a bit of blood lust among ordinary people, and I'm willing to bet that many would volunteer to push the plunger if they could. On the other hand, there are some staff who are traumatized by their jobs. The CO mentioned in the Herzog film was a poignant example.

No, the things I've emphasized in your post are not exactly correct. "We," neither as a nation nor collectively, had a part in enacting many of the foolish laws (Executive Orders & Regulations rollbacks) being thrust upon us, our children & our environment. Nor did "we" play a part in reinstating the Death Penalty although I will admit that there are sheeple more than willing to push the plunger.

tRump Did Not get the majority of votes 2016. Did Not. Did Not. Did Not get the majority of votes. What he did get is the most Electorial Votes. Big difference there.

"We," neither as a nation nor collectively, had a part in appointing barr Attorney General, puppet to tRump. "We," neither as a nation nor collectively, had a part in barr's politically motivated mass killing.

And since I apparently cannot control myself :banghead: on these issues, I will no longer post in this thread :oops:

fbopnomore 07-28-2019 10:39 AM

I thought the " hypocritical oath" was a pun.

gvalliant 07-28-2019 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliba00 (Post 7787366)
Trump may not be popular in this thread, but he was popular enough with the majority of people during the 2016 election. There is quite a bit of blood lust among ordinary people, and I'm willing to bet that many would volunteer to push the plunger if they could. On the other hand, there are some staff who are traumatized by their jobs. The CO mentioned in the Herzog film was a poignant example.

I agree with all except your belief many would push the plunger. Many people - Republican and Democrat - boast how they'd do it especially for (insert crime that they don't like here). I believe that is just tough talk, but not reality.

The more removed from the actual killing or death, the easier it is. Studies show someone in authority can convince people to push a button because it serves some important purpose even if it leads to 100 people dying 1,000 miles away as long as they don't have to look at, see, or have any other involvement. No direct experience with the death.

Hand the same person a gun, tell them to shoot a bad person who deserves it who is restrained right in front of them because it serves an important purpose. They can't do it even though this time it's only one person. Direct experience with the death. This is why so many ex military experience PTSD; exposure to and close experience with death. It's no longer tough talk, it's real.

The blood lust people you refer to vote and talk tough and are culpable. But are sheltered from experiencing results of their decision. Too easy. I wish there was a way to make voters more aware, more directly involved and experiencing the impact of that tough talk and their vote. That would hopefully change American mindset regarding death penalty. This decision to resume federal executions is not good. Too much of the voting public don't share that concern.

marco1969 07-28-2019 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourself (Post 7787264)
Generally, more than one CO is responsible for pushing the button. This is the “plausible deniability” thing that follows the same line of reasoning as putting a blank in one of the guns in a firing squad execution - nobody knows if you killed the guy or your buddy next to you did.

This is probably the only time application of the law of parties would be justified.

Taliba00 07-28-2019 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchouli (Post 7787399)
No, the things I've emphasized in your post are not exactly correct. "We," neither as a nation nor collectively, had a part in enacting many of the foolish laws (Executive Orders & Regulations rollbacks) being thrust upon us, our children & our environment. Nor did "we" play a part in reinstating the Death Penalty although I will admit that there are sheeple more than willing to push the plunger.

tRump Did Not get the majority of votes 2016. Did Not. Did Not. Did Not get the majority of votes. What he did get is the most Electorial Votes. Big difference there.

"We," neither as a nation nor collectively, had a part in appointing barr Attorney General, puppet to tRump. "We," neither as a nation nor collectively, had a part in barr's politically motivated mass killing.

And since I apparently cannot control myself :banghead: on these issues, I will no longer post in this thread :oops:

I take no offense -- obviously I'm not one of the bloodthirsty. I wish our country was more like Sweden or Iceland. But I'm not moving to Iceland at this late stage of my life. I'd never master the language beyond "hello, how are you," lol.

When I say 'we' I stand by it -- for better or for worse, this is our country. We live in it, we benefit from it, we are its citizens. I look around me and I disagree with probably 85% of the things my fellow citizens express, in both deed and opinion, but I am part of that collective 'we.' The support for Trump is very real and very inflamed. I have personally seen lifetime Democrats and liberals become Trump supporters -- and I'm not talking just one or two people.

No, we didn't appoint Barr, but that hardly matters. The DP is part of our legal code (for the states that have it, and for the federal gov't) for centuries. Americans are roughly equally divided about the DP. Fact is that if the numbers were more like 70/30, we'd see it ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. That's what happened with gay marriage.

yourself 07-28-2019 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliba00 (Post 7787366)
A lot of the staff at my husband's facility are former military, so killing 'the bad guys' is part of their training and mindset and culture.

They train and train and train to kill, yet a lot of them come home with PTSD, in part because they train to do the action, not to process the emotional and psychological consequences. In the last generation of war, the enemy has been Muslim, from countries that are largely theocracies - mandating comportment with strict religious laws. They dress different, they look different, they speak different than Main Street America. And, they have a gun or other weapon that can be turned on the soldiers on the ground.

There is a big difference between shooting the enemy and strapping a compliant, elderly man onto a gurney and watching him get murdered (cause of death on the death certificate is homicide). While training may get you to participate in the first one, it doesn't save the people from the emotional consequences.


Quote:

It isn't fair to blame staff; they are simply enacting the laws that we, as a nation, instituted, and are running the system that we, collectively, put into place. Trump may not be popular in this thread, but he was popular enough with the majority of people during the 2016 election. There is quite a bit of blood lust among ordinary people, and I'm willing to bet that many would volunteer to push the plunger if they could. On the other hand, there are some staff who are traumatized by their jobs. The CO mentioned in the Herzog film was a poignant example.
Patch hit on much of this, but it is worth pointing out a number of things. Back when John Ashcroft was USA, he was charged with getting a death sentence in every federal jurisdiction in states that did not have the death penalty. So, in Iowa where there has been no death penalty since the 60’s (1963, if I recall correctly), Ashcroft found a nice drug case with murder that he could take federal and get a death sentence. This was part of the death penalty debate in the 1990’s, and a political death sentence in a jurisdiction that gave the people LWOP.

So, W is actually responsible for many of the 60 people currently sentenced to death under federal law. Hit Obama and Clinton, and you have a depifferent take on the death penalty. Also, despite W accruing death sentences, the number of people he actually executed was 3, a very low number compared to the number of executions he was responsible for in a Texas.

Since Furman in 1972, W is the only one to actually execute somebody. We are talking Nixon to now, the number of death warrants signed is minimal, reflects the politics of the federal death penalty, and now we are stuck with trump.

Trump signed these warrants to pander to his base, not because he is interested in justice.

But, to the topic of who would push the plunger, shoot the gun, etc - there is a reason historically that executions have been botched by drunk hangmen. It is a distasteful task. Bravado May get you to the thought that you could actually murder somebody, but the idea that just about anybody would actually take a life is wrong. People need training in executions to come close to actually doing the job. Even then, they are rarely prepared for the psychological consequences. The more time between executions, the easier it is on staff. Back to back executions cause the most damage to staff. Here, after more than 16 years, staff is being asked to murder 5 people in a fairly short time. Staff is going to suffer because of politics. Because trump wants to pander to his base. Fun stuff.

yourself 07-28-2019 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliba00 (Post 7787414)
I take no offense -- obviously I'm not one of the bloodthirsty. I wish our country was more like Sweden or Iceland. But I'm not moving to Iceland at this late stage of my life. I'd never master the language beyond "hello, how are you," lol.

When I say 'we' I stand by it -- for better or for worse, this is our country. We live in it, we benefit from it, we are its citizens. I look around me and I disagree with probably 85% of the things my fellow citizens express, in both deed and opinion, but I am part of that collective 'we.' The support for Trump is very real and very inflamed. I have personally seen lifetime Democrats and liberals become Trump supporters -- and I'm not talking just one or two people.

No, we didn't appoint Barr, but that hardly matters. The DP is part of our legal code (for the states that have it, and for the federal gov't) for centuries. Americans are roughly equally divided about the DP. Fact is that if the numbers were more like 70/30, we'd see it ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. That's what happened with gay marriage.

Death penalty has not been a part of the American fabric for centuries. Beyond the Furman hiatus, lots of states have been death penalty free, some for well over a century (Michigan, for instance, has been death penalty free since 1848 if I remember correctly). As more and more states abandon the death penalty, we come closer and closer to a cruel and unusual challenge that will succeed. Currently, 29 states have the DP. Get below 25, and there will be a real shot at a challenge. If you follow the map of the death penalty - states that have it and states that don't, it pretty much follows the red/blue divide.

Gay marriage is different.

Taliba00 07-28-2019 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourself (Post 7787417)
Death penalty has not been a part of the American fabric for centuries. Beyond the Furman hiatus, lots of states have been death penalty free, some for well over a century (Michigan, for instance, has been death penalty free since 1848 if I remember correctly). As more and more states abandon the death penalty, we come closer and closer to a cruel and unusual challenge that will succeed. Currently, 29 states have the DP. Get below 25, and there will be a real shot at a challenge. If you follow the map of the death penalty - states that have it and states that don't, it pretty much follows the red/blue divide.

Gay marriage is different.

But this looks like we're in agreement -- as more and more states reject it, we might see a change. 29 is still the majority. The effective challenges come when the majority supports change.

Of course the DP has been interwoven into the fabric of the history of this country -- it's been part of the fabric of every country on earth, if we but go back a hundred or two hundred years or so. That's not very long in terms of history. Sweden, Denmark, England and my fav, Iceland, all abolished the DP in the 20th century (I'm happy to see Iceland having abolished it at a much earlier date than the others). And those countries have had a much longer history, so it takes a lot of time for public sentiment to shift.

Staff absolutely objectify the inmates they jail as 'the bad guys.' Most are, as a matter of fact. Whether staff suffer PTSD from an execution is dependent on each CO's personality structure. Many former military who've killed do not in fact suffer from PTSD, so it's not a given.

yourself 07-28-2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taliba00 (Post 7787420)
But this looks like we're in agreement -- as more and more states reject it, we might see a change. 29 is still the majority. The effective challenges come when the majority supports change.

Of course the DP has been interwoven into the fabric of the history of this country -- it's been part of the fabric of every country on earth, if we but go back a hundred or two hundred years or so. That's not very long in terms of history. Sweden, Denmark, England and my fav, Iceland, all abolished the DP in the 20th century (I'm happy to see Iceland having abolished it at a much earlier date than the others). And those countries have had a much longer history, so it takes a lot of time for public sentiment to shift.

Staff absolutely objectify the inmates they jail as 'the bad guys.' Most are, as a matter of fact. Whether staff suffer PTSD from an execution is dependent on each CO's personality structure. Many former military who've killed do not in fact suffer from PTSD, so it's not a given.

No, we don,t agree.

Objectification as bad guys - look at WWI where people were actually the enemy, and where people actually had guns and permission ne encouragement to kill the enemy from society, their fellows, and their military. See On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, by David Grossman. The stat there is 15-20% actually fired their guns at people. And you had demonization of the enemy on top of it.

Being an ass and objectifying an inmate is not the same as killing them. This is so true that the people charged with killing a person are not the same ones who have to deal day in and day out with that inmate.

Disability due to PTSD of a CO who participated in execution - we are talking about people who are psychologically chosen for the job, are long term COs, are rank. We are talking about people who can handle the public, but still are not prepared for the outpouring of grief by family members.

But, hey, argue away. I have only studied this stuff.

If you really want to get into the death penalty in the US, you are getting into the history of racism in the US. But, hey, nobody wants to talk about that. people don,t want to bring that forward into the current situation as asshats like trump continue to use execution for their political needs. Colonial America - know how many crimes an African American could be executed for as opposed to a white? Or a freeman compared to a white? Know what happened with Furman?

But hey, want to get all grandiose with the history of the death penalty in humanity, we can go there.

Or, you could recognize that the death penalty overall has been contracting. Developmentally disabled? No death penalty. Under 18? No death penalty. Psychologically disabled is up next. Anything other than murder (and federally, being a traitor, and those national security based offenses), no death penalty. Pro death penalty people have tried to increase the scope of the death penalty to include sex offenses against children. So far they have resoundingly lost.

29, with CA at moratorium and having dismantled its death row. So, yes, this is a progressive issue.

But hey, let's talk about the use of spiritual evidence in Colonial America and witchcraft instead of realizing the number of death verdicts continues to decrease, America's thirst for criminal blood continues to decrease, but asshats like trump appealing to fear and their base are trying to kill people for political gain.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:37 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2001- 2017 Prison Talk Online