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-   -   RDAP rules for non-citizens affects Joe Guidice (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705814)

bellisq 09-13-2017 09:44 AM

RDAP rules for non-citizens affects Joe Guidice
 
Any decent lawyer should have informed Mr. Guidice that he couldn't meet all the aftercare requirements of RDAP. He would have to be eligible to serve 6 months in the halfway house. He never bothered to become a citizen, so is at risk for deportation and therefore cannot be in a halfway house. His laxity in taking advantage of the ability to be a dual citizen is going to cause him to lose out on the benefits of treatment and the rewards of the RDAP program.

http://pagesix.com/2017/09/12/joe-gi...hol-treatment/

It's too bad. He has 4 little girls who miss him and he will have to do the full term rather than getting the one year off benefit.

Doinaight 09-13-2017 11:04 AM

They use everything they can to keep you from getting that year off. I took the RDAP program even after knowing i was not going to get the time off and I believe it really helped me out. My pretrial probation officer said i was the worst addict he had ever seen. I just got let off my supervised release over a year early. The program is really good in my opinion if you use it to your advantage. They would not give me the time off as they said that an enhancement to my crime was violent. I had a meth lab explode, no one including myself were injured and no property was destroyed. But the FBOP said they classify that as a violent offense. I have seen many people get denied for guns that were never used or just about any reason. What really blows my mind is that they will give sex offenders time off for RDAP and to me that seems way more violent than having a gun u dont use or a meth lab explode. Because even if they were just in for pictures somebody had to subject those kids to physical abuse to get the pictures. Also Where does the FBOP get off saying something is violent of the court does not recognize it as violent.

bellisq 09-13-2017 11:19 AM

Congratulations on your ongoing recovery. That's great. Guidice has lived in this country from decades, I think he's Italian or Portuguese, but never bothered to do the paperwork required to get citizenship. The majority of non-citizens get deported after they serve their term. I'm guessing Guidice will not be deported, but he is in the same category that is denied RDAP, even without benefits because that category is denied halfway house placement.

This rule is a cost-saving measure. Why would the US government treat people who aren't residents and who can participate in aftercare? RDAP is the only federal program that gives time off, and the funding continues because the statistics of the success holds up year after year. For once, I think the government got it right on the non-citizenship ban. I think the definition of "violence" is too broad. Had a client get refused time off because he legitimately had a gun in his home, it had to do with the distance it was located from the product. Sex offender is also a broad category. Many convicted of child pornography aren't violent, some are. Not all halfway houses will accept child pornography convictions as a matter of policy.

Good luck with your continuing sobriety.

safran 09-13-2017 11:36 AM

One thing that has stunned me reading here at PTO is how little lawyers know about bop and their policies.

A few years ago a member got a 6 month sentence and was stunned she was SSed to a FCI. My 1st question to her was are you a US citizen?

No, she was not and only US citizens get a camp. When she told the lawyer the lawyer was stunned - thought all short sentences went to a camp.

Also, she had 3 years probation and her lawyer told her she would get to stay in the US for those 3 years paying off restitution and this is never the case.

The most repeated mistake I hear though is the overstating of how much say so the inmate has about where they are placed. Either the soon-to-be-inmate hears what they want or some lawyers make it sound like the bop really cares about where you want to go.

And then there is deportation - many insist their lawyer never even hinted deportation, but all but automatic.


Non-citizens are banned from programs other than RDAP too; none of the vo-tech classes are offered to non-citizens and if I remember right neither is GED. I think only ESL is the only class, but I hope somebody updates me if that has changed.

Doinaight 09-13-2017 11:36 AM

I am sorry to hear about the denial of his time off, I hope that they still let him take the program but they might not as if i understand your post right and that is because you have to do so many month of the RDAP program when you are on the outside to consider it finished although really the bulk of it and best part of it is done inside the prison. If he is eligible to take that part even if he can't finish the outside part i recommend it. It is good for all criminals not just drug addicts as there really isnt much focus on drugs its more about changing your thinking and learning to think out actions before doing them and what the outcomes will be.

thanks for the kind words Bellisq

Doinaight 09-13-2017 11:44 AM

I am not sure about GED I did think that there were many hispanic people doing the GED program but again I am not positive as i was not in the class. I also have little trust in lawyers that deal with federal cases for the most part. We have a really good public defender in my district he really does his best but one of my co defendants got him and I was stuck with someone they contracted out to. He told me i was likely to get 2 years. Told me i would get time off for drug program. told me day of sentencing i would get 53 months that he had talked to prosecutor and then said that was too much time during the sentencing and either pissed off prosecutor or something cause prosector didnt make recommendation on specific time he just said cant recommend bottom of guidlines and i got sentenced to 63 months. 10 mins after he told me would be 53. luckily i got the 2 point deduction Obama passed after being in for a couple years and knocked it down to 51 months
.

Also see a lot of people come in with short sentences of less than 3 years and think they gonna get RDAP usually doesnt happen and If you have less than 27 months they almost never let you as they say you dont have time to finish the program. Between waiting list and length of program if ur not over 30 months don't count on the program. And No I would say at least half of the inmates are no where near where they thought they were going or even where the judge recommended.



Quote:

Originally Posted by safran (Post 7662644)
One thing that has stunned me reading here at PTO is how little lawyers know about bop and their policies.

A few years ago a member got a 6 month sentence and was stunned she was SSed to a FCI. My 1st question to her was are you a US citizen?

No, she was not and only US citizens get a camp. When she told the lawyer the lawyer was stunned - thought all short sentences went to a camp.

Also, she had 3 years probation and her lawyer told her she would get to stay in the US for those 3 years paying off restitution and this is never the case.

The most repeated mistake I hear though is the overstating of how much say so the inmate has about where they are placed. Either the soon-to-be-inmate hears what they want or some lawyers make it sound like the bop really cares about where you want to go.

And then there is deportation - many insist their lawyer never even hinted deportation, but all but automatic.


Non-citizens are banned from programs other than RDAP too; none of the vo-tech classes are offered to non-citizens and if I remember right neither is GED. I think only ESL is the only class, but I hope somebody updates me if that has changed.


bellisq 09-13-2017 11:49 AM

I just had a long conversation yesterday with a BOP consultant about the variety of falsehoods we had heard lawyers say in the past 2 weeks. They just know zip about the BOP, I've found that Judges and POs are pretty unknowledgeable also, although they don't think they are. Verify, verify, verify...PTO is great for that.

I say a Gratitude "Thank You" at least once a week to David, formerly Fed-X, for starting and sticking with PTO.

safran 09-13-2017 11:58 AM

Yes, I should have mentioned judges! I don't know if the judges are being naive or if they think their word is so important even the BoP listens to them, but it simply is not true.

Once a wife here was complaining that a federal judge order her husband to a prison that has a specific type of training program - that was great except NO BoP prison had that program. The BoP has many faults, but in this case even I don't think it was their fault.

And the number of members here that use the word "ordered" when speaking of sentencing when in fact much of what the judge says is a suggestion. RDAP as an example; the judge can "order" you to take RDAP, but if you don't qualify - especially if your sentence is short - you don't qualify.

Another RDAP thing is the 12 months off; many lawyers and judges seem to think everybody gets 12 months off and this is simply not the case. You can't get an 18 month sentence and get 12 months off for RDAP.

bellisq 09-13-2017 02:16 PM

You are right, there has to be a minimum of a 30 month sentence to be considered for RDAP.

safran 09-13-2017 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellisq (Post 7662719)
You are right, there has to be a minimum of a 30 month sentence to be considered for RDAP.

I thought it was you had to have 21 months or more left to serve? This can be a problem if the person gets a long enough sentence, but did county jail time.

Also, a judge can "order" RDAP, but if a federal inmate has an outstanding detainer there is no RDAP.

Once complaint I have about RDAP is that they require what I will call physical addiction. They don't count gambling (as an example) as an addiction and yet I met many women that described the urge the same way a drug user talked about things. Or the people addicted to the thrill of the con. This last group was among my very least favorite women.

safran 09-13-2017 03:10 PM

I can't believe it! I saw that Joe G. person is suing saying him being banned from RDAP is unfair - or something along those lines.

Sorry, Joe - you are one of many and even if you did get to go before an immigration judge early I don't think you should bank on getting to stay in the US regardless of how long you've been here.

I really get annoyed when people insist on making the problems they created the fault of somebody else.

bellisq 09-13-2017 08:57 PM

RDAP has an independent application process. The federal court has no influence over the decision. Generally, addiction must be documented in the Pre-Sentence Report to be considered. It has to be documented that abuse (alcohol and/or drug) must occur within 12 month before starting incarceration.

I don't see how 21 months would work in most situations. Approximately, after the first staffing (which isn't instantaneous), the referral has to be made. The interview process takes time. Then there has to be an opening in the program, followed by 9 months of treatment, placement in the halfway house which has to be signed off by both the probation office and the halfway house and 6 months in the halfway house mandated by law. Even if the BOP moved that quickly, the inmate wouldn't get much time off his sentence and would be required to complete all the aftercare.

I agree it is short sighted to exclude gambling but I'm not sure what type of treatment would help the "conned" women, although there are a lot of them.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think 30 months is the realistic number for clearing the full process.

Doinaight 09-14-2017 07:39 AM

12 months off + 9 months program plus 6 months halfway house so 27 months is the minimum you could have and get the time. From observation it would be really hard to get everything done to get into the program and only have 3 months in So pretty sure the minimum sentence to take full advantage of RDAP would be 30 months.

safran 09-14-2017 08:04 AM

21 months left to serve once happened at Alderson - according to a former member here. I have also seen people post they got in with 24 months left to serve as well as 27 months left, but I think those were odd cases and happened at prisons with efficient, diligent staff and they were all camps.

I don't think it is the norm and I'd guess the inmate got minimal time off their sentence, but if somebody can turn their life around by taking RDAP I hope they take it anyway.

As with most things in the BoP there are quirks and exceptions - it is rare anything is 100% the same on everything.

Doinaight 09-15-2017 09:33 AM

Yes I should have clarified there were the rare cases even at the FCI low i was at that some people with less than 30 months did get into the program they just did not receive much time off certainly not the full year. Hell I didn't even get the year off and i took the program its def worth taking.

safran 09-15-2017 10:36 AM

I don't understand how or why Joe is just now becoming aware of the problems caused by him not being a citizen! He should have figured it out when he was sent to a low rather than a camp and it certainly isn't like he's being treated differently than any other non citizen.

He is was born in Italy. He, like 100s of other BoP inmates that are not US citizens, are not granted certain programs and RDAP is one of them. He is not being treated unfairly and I hope he doesn't expect any special treatment.

bellisq 09-15-2017 05:41 PM

His wife had great NJ lawyers originally, but couldn't be bothered to follow their direction and accurately complete the asset form, she left off vehicles, among other things. These two aren't the sharpest tools in the drawer. Joe has a separate state charge for using false ID to get a driver's license, he used his brother's info. after losing his license and got caught. I still feel sorry for the kids, especially since it's played out on Bravo.

safran 09-15-2017 05:47 PM

Yeah, and it seems the wife found federal probation above her pay scale too - forgot to mention some traffic tickets.

I didn't know Joe had state charges too, but if those are pending that is another reason he can't get into RDAP. Joe kvetching about fair this late in the game is inane.

bellisq 09-15-2017 08:00 PM

The state case was resolved.

MrsDeeKay 09-16-2017 03:59 PM

RDAP rules for non-citizens affects Joe Guidice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bellisq (Post 7663280)
The state case was resolved.



The state case or the RDAP?

safran 09-16-2017 04:49 PM

Joe is not getting into RDAP

Lovebirds 09-23-2017 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellisq (Post 7662635)
Guidice has lived in this country from decades, I think he's Italian or Portuguese, but never bothered to do the paperwork required to get citizenship.

This rule is a cost-saving measure. Why would the US government treat people who aren't residents and who can participate in aftercare?

How do you know he couldnít be bothered to do the paperwork to become a US citizen??? Maybe he just didnít want to become an American or maybe his home country doesnít allow dual citizenship... There are a lot of permanent residents living in America who are here for family reasons and who do not want to become citizens, myself including. Itís a choice people make and it usually doesnít have anything to do with whether or not they can be bothered to fill out the paperwork, pay the $785 fee, go for an interview and then attend an oath ceremony.

While I agree that the US government certainly shouldnít pay for non-residents, itís not applicable in this case, since Guidice is a legal permanent resident.

miamac 09-23-2017 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovebirds (Post 7664982)
It’s a choice people make and it usually doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not they can be bothered to fill out the paperwork, pay the $785 fee, go for an interview and then attend an oath ceremony.

Because there's no paperwork or fees for residency, right? :rolleyes: Silly slacking legal residents.

I don't know anything about this case except what I Googled just now...uff. The way we continue to pour attention on the privileged-- that's what's sad to me. But case aside, I love the "too lazy to become a citizen" argument. Gets me every time.

safran 09-23-2017 12:53 PM

"While I agree that the US government certainly shouldn’t pay for non-residents, it’s not applicable in this case, since Guidice is a legal permanent resident."

It has nothing to do with the status of his residency - all that matters is he is not a citizen and he is a non citizen with an ICE detainer.

As things stand now, Joe isn't getting into RDAP. He will serve 87.5% of his sentence in prison and then be moved to an ICE facility to await a deportation hearing.

bellisq 09-24-2017 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovebirds (Post 7664982)
How do you know he couldn’t be bothered to do the paperwork to become a US citizen??? Maybe he just didn’t want to become an American or maybe his home country doesn’t allow dual citizenship...

Guess you never saw the show, and I admit I only saw bits and pieces, but he wasn't prohibited by any regulations from getting citizenship, but other members of his family did it. He's living in a mansion and convicted of bankruptcy fraud. And it's rare that a relatively uninvolved wife gets punished for the actions of the husband. So I'm being judgy, but with lots of reality show evidence. My thoughts on this case do not generalize to the whole.

As a second generation American, my relatives wanted citizenship as soon as legally possible. Language was the difficulty for many of them.


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