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-   -   Creating More Victims: How Executions Hurt Families (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589573)

yourself 02-16-2012 07:57 PM

Creating More Victims: How Executions Hurt Families
 
available here:

http://www.mvfhr.org/sites/default/f...MVFHReport.pdf

Ericaburke 09-26-2012 11:51 PM

I look at it like this: the family of the executed prisoner has a very long time to come to terms with their loved one possibly dying on death row. The victim's family didn't have that time or opportunity.

RainyCola 09-27-2012 12:40 AM

erica, are you trying to ruffle feathers here? looking for an argument? or are you trying to start a meaningful discussion?

i'm only asking because i'm sure your brother-in-law caused a family anguish when he decided to drive while drunk, did he not? his victim's family didn't have the opportunity to "come to terms" (as you put it) with their loved one dying. which brings me to ask you another question: what makes you think you have the right to come here on your high horse and say anything?

billysbutton 09-27-2012 12:55 AM

Yes that's all she is trying to do it painfully obvious. Let's just pray her loved one never has to defend himself in prison resulting in a death or she may find herself writing letters to the polunsky unit. Would you then turn your back on him???? Nobody ever comes to terms with there loved ones being murdered. What a completely moronic thing to say....I have always given my loved ones victims all the respect in the world and so did my love one. He didn't try to stop his execution he didn't do tons of interviews to save his life. He knew he had a price to pay and he did it with dignity!

Ericaburke 09-27-2012 08:00 AM

No, you can look through all my posts. I have stated that my BIL deserved to go to prison for killing that poor woman with his drunk driving.

SouthernGyrl 09-27-2012 09:19 AM

Unfortunately, for us it's not just about going to prison and coming home. It's about the loss of another human life.

J&MG1113 09-27-2012 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericaburke (Post 6955401)
I look at it like this: the family of the executed prisoner has a very long time to come to terms with their loved one possibly dying on death row. The victim's family didn't have that time or opportunity.

There is far too much to debate here, but the statement comes across as a bit callous. Victims are victims, be they victims of a loved one's instant, unexpected death, or a death drawn out over a decade of pain, suffering and cruelty.

CanadianGypsy 09-27-2012 04:53 PM

Well said Vindicated, i agree 100%

RainyCola 09-27-2012 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericaburke
No, you can look through all my posts. I have stated that my BIL deserved to go to prison for killing that poor woman with his drunk driving.

So now I ask you this: What makes your BIL any better than anyone sitting on death row?

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Owlparty 09-27-2012 06:14 PM

I see the statement as a comparison. For example, a loved one is diagnosed with a terminal illness, and has time to say goodbye, get their estate in order and enjoy some time with their family and loved ones; compared to a sudden death heart attack. The prisoners on death row have the advantage of making things right for the people around them, unfortunately, this was not an option given to their victims and families.

Many death row prisoners find religion, make amends to their families, and some work on trying to make it right for the victim's loved ones. Many find their way back to a good place in their soul. I can see where a victim's loved one would resent that time given.

The difference between a drunk driver, and murder one...intent!

JMHO.

J&MG1113 09-27-2012 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlparty (Post 6956209)
I see the statement as a comparison. For example, a loved one is diagnosed with a terminal illness, and has time to say goodbye, get their estate in order and enjoy some time with their family and loved ones; compared to a sudden death heart attack. The prisoners on death row have the advantage of making things right for the people around them, unfortunately, this was not an option given to their victims and families.

Many death row prisoners find religion, make amends to their families, and some work on trying to make it right for the victim's loved ones. Many find their way back to a good place in their soul. I can see where a victim's loved one would resent that time given.

The difference between a drunk driver, and murder one...intent!

JMHO.

I respect your position, but I disagree a bit on the last statement - "The difference between a drunk driver, and murder one...intent!"

There isn't always intent with death row inmates, and certainly there are miscalculations when it comes to a number of different factors, but the truth of the matter is - be it the drunk driver victim, the murder one victim, or the man/woman being accused of committing the offense...no one "deserves" to die at the hands of another.

RainyCola 09-27-2012 06:39 PM

So basically it is justifiable to give a drunk driver who killed someone 6/7 years in prison. Doesn't matter that their actions took a human life. Doesn't matter that they could have prevented it. Doesn't matter that someone died because of their actions, right? That's like saying "Oh, your loved one was just killed by a drunk driver. He's only going to serve a few years and have the chance to get out and kill someone else."

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RainyCola 09-27-2012 06:42 PM

The only reason I'm even "debating" this issue is because this Erica person comes here, gives a good show, yet her brother in law killed someone while driving drunk. Not only did he kill someone while driving drunk, once he got out of prison for that conviction, he got back in a car and drove drunk again!

Judge not lest ye be judged.

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Owlparty 09-27-2012 08:17 PM

See, I understand that this site is for prisoner support. I also see on the CP boards...he was abused, he is incompetent..she didn't have good counsel. If you are convicted of Murder One, you intended for your victim to be dead. A drunk has an addiction, is there no sympathy there? Could he have been abused, incompetent, or had an incompetent attorney? If you are honest with yourselves..you are not giving the drunk the benefit of the doubt. The folks on DR that you correspond with are NOT the same people that committed the atrocities that they are there for. They have had YEARS, hopefully sober, to contemplate what they have done, and how to be better people. I think that is the point here. Their victims did not get that time...and as a victim's loved one...that hurts!

For example..Karla Faye Tucker (drug addict)...on DR for over a decade, found Jesus, and was good with him when she died. Her victim, was committing adultery at the time of the murder. In Karla Faye's current belief system, she condemned Debbie Thorton to an eternity of hell (I am assuming she was not "saved") Debbie did not get the opportunity to make it right with Jesus, because of Karla's actions......Think about it, and have sympathy for the victim's families!

J&MG1113 09-27-2012 08:45 PM

No one is lacking sympathy for the families of victims whose lives have been taken unexpectedly. However, at the same rate, it's not fair to say that because death row inmates have had time to reconcile, that their loved ones suffer any less when they are gone.

A victim is a victim is a victim - slice it any way you like, someone is still hurting.

Owlparty 09-27-2012 08:49 PM

A victim is a victim.

No doubt...but it is so much better to be able to say goodbye!

J&MG1113 09-27-2012 09:01 PM

It all depends on how you view life I suppose...

When you are looking into the eyes of someone you love, knowing that you will never see them alive again, that is not a blessing. It shreds your entire existence. Add to that the pain of witnessing the death of your loved one and I think it can be described as insurmountable.

I've lost a number of people in my life whom I loved dearly. I didn't get to say a "last goodbye" to any of them, but by letting them know how much I love them while they were alive, I didn't regret not saying "goodbye" one last time.

JKB's Girl 09-27-2012 09:29 PM

The whole situation is so tragic from beginning to end that to argue it on the point of who hurts more and who suffers less seems so very wrong on so many levels.

The argument for and against capital punishment has been waged for years and years and involves extreme emotions on both ends. Emotions that can be validated on both sides.

My man served over 5-1/2 years on death row for a crime that he is guilty of. I could go into the details of the crime, present arguments for how it occurred, make excuses if you will, but it does not change the results of what happened. The results of one act resulted in a lifetime of tragedy and heartache for both the victim, his family, my guy, his family and for me.

I don't know how you would take a scale and try to balance the victim's side with our side. You simply heap one pain on top of another on top of another, then add the costs to society, the loss of potential, the damage done to both ends seems to make the whole argument rather pointless.

Instead the sides should be united against prevention of it occuring in the future, not thru retribution but positive influence for life affirming activity, whether this be thru volunteering to help wayward youth or to become involved in a prison support program, or whatever one decides to do to bring honor to the memory of the victims and purpose to the life of the offender.

RainyCola 09-27-2012 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlparty (Post 6956335)
See, I understand that this site is for prisoner support. I also see on the CP boards...he was abused, he is incompetent..she didn't have good counsel. If you are convicted of Murder One, you intended for your victim to be dead. A drunk has an addiction, is there no sympathy there? Could he have been abused, incompetent, or had an incompetent attorney?

so basically, a drunk should get my sympathy, but someone who had/has a demented mindset because he/she was abused as a child should not? what about the ones who did have horrible counsel? what about the ones who did not anticipate the death of their victim but the charge was murder one because of the circumstances (robbery, rape, etc. can even bring in the law of parties here)? it's not a black and white issue like some people make it out to be. it's not a black and white issue for a lot of people in prison, not just people on death row.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlparty (Post 6956335)
If you are honest with yourselves..you are not giving the drunk the benefit of the doubt.

and why should we? we are constantly badgered, attacked and patronized because of who we are here supporting. no one gives our loved ones a benefit of the doubt, so why should i sit here and give someone else's loved one a benefit of the doubt when it comes to this discussion? no one is understanding our point of view when it comes to losing our loved ones, so why should be be more understanding of their plight? i'm sick and tired of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlparty (Post 6956335)
The folks on DR that you correspond with are NOT the same people that committed the atrocities that they are there for. They have had YEARS, hopefully sober, to contemplate what they have done, and how to be better people. I think that is the point here. Their victims did not get that time...and as a victim's loved one...that hurts!

i lost someone very close to me in a car accident, the victim of a drunk driver. i didn't get to say goodbye either until i saw her laying in the casket. do not lecture me.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlparty (Post 6956335)
For example..Karla Faye Tucker (drug addict)...on DR for over a decade, found Jesus, and was good with him when she died. Her victim, was committing adultery at the time of the murder. In Karla Faye's current belief system, she condemned Debbie Thorton to an eternity of hell (I am assuming she was not "saved") Debbie did not get the opportunity to make it right with Jesus, because of Karla's actions......Think about it, and have sympathy for the victim's families!

now, are you giving karla faye the "benefit of the doubt" here? do you have sympathy for her being how she was a drug addict? doesn't seem that way to me. you condemn karla faye, a drug addict when she committed murder, yet you're going to sit here and lecture us for not having sympathy for a drunk driver? for not giving a drunk driver the benefit of the doubt? come on. you're being hypocritical.

my whole point is not that my loved one or her loved one or his loved one or their loved one is better than someone else, or that our loved ones deserve more understanding or sympathy or anything of the like. my point is that any time a life is taken, the victim's family hurts. i don't care what circumstances the person is killed. it hurts. and for someone to come on here and tell us "well at least you have the chance to tell your loved one goodbye"? well, frankly, that burns my ass.

people don't understand that we DO have sympathy for the families of the victims. they paint us with a broad brush and think we're like these rabid dogs who love the fact that our loved ones are in prison for taking another life. they think we have something against the victims and their families. that couldn't be further from the truth. the fact that we love and support these "monsters" annoys people, even angers them and that is completely understandable. however, they need to see that we're innocent in this whole mess too, and just because some of us support these guys and gals on death row doesn't mean we support their crime.

Chucos Queen 09-27-2012 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainyCola

so basically, a drunk should get my sympathy, but someone who had/has a demented mindset because he/she was abused as a child should not? what about the ones who did have horrible counsel? what about the ones who did not anticipate the death of their victim but the charge was murder one because of the circumstances (robbery, rape, etc. can even bring in the law of parties here)? it's not a black and white issue like some people make it out to be. it's not a black and white issue for a lot of people in prison, not just people on death row.

and why should we? we are constantly badgered, attacked and patronized because of who we are here supporting. no one gives our loved ones a benefit of the doubt, so why should i sit here and give someone else's loved one a benefit of the doubt when it comes to this discussion? no one is understanding our point of view when it comes to losing our loved ones, so why should be be more understanding of their plight? i'm sick and tired of it.

i lost someone very close to me in a car accident, the victim of a drunk driver. i didn't get to say goodbye either until i saw her laying in the casket. do not lecture me.

now, are you giving karla faye the "benefit of the doubt" here? do you have sympathy for her being how she was a drug addict? doesn't seem that way to me. you condemn karla faye, a drug addict when she committed murder, yet you're going to sit here and lecture us for not having sympathy for a drunk driver? for not giving a drunk driver the benefit of the doubt? come on. you're being hypocritical.

my whole point is not that my loved one or her loved one or his loved one or their loved one is better than someone else, or that our loved ones deserve more understanding or sympathy or anything of the like. my point is that any time a life is taken, the victim's family hurts. i don't care what circumstances the person is killed. it hurts. and for someone to come on here and tell us "well at least you have the chance to tell your loved one goodbye"? well, frankly, that burns my ass.

people don't understand that we DO have sympathy for the families of the victims. they paint us with a broad brush and think we're like these rabid dogs who love the fact that our loved ones are in prison for taking another life. they think we have something against the victims and their families. that couldn't be further from the truth. the fact that we love and support these "monsters" annoys people, even angers them and that is completely understandable. however, they need to see that we're innocent in this whole mess too, and just because some of us support these guys and gals on death row doesn't mean we support their crime.

Wow! Well put. Thank you for that. My brother and two friends were brutally murdered when i was 13....One of the guys who did it is on DR...Its taken me sooo many years to let go of the hate I've had for that guy. You broke it down into a way of healing. I don't blame family members for being their with their loved one, and i don't poor my anger onto anyone...loosing my big brother has hurt and continues to hurt in a way i hope noone ever has to experience...but i also hope to never experience the pain of a DR inmates loved one. I just wanted to thank you for touching my heart :)

Owlparty 09-27-2012 11:13 PM

OH, I definitively see both sides..but we still must have empathy for the Drunk Driver, if in fact, we are here to support everyone! Even if he only got 6-7 years.

I still think it is easier to say goodbye to a loved one who has some time, as opposed to a sudden death...still do!

patchouli 09-27-2012 11:55 PM

I don't believe the pdf discusses drunk drivers :hmm: We are waaay off the topic of How Executions Hurt Families.

And the pdf no longer works, so this thread is now closed.


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