You can't punish a disease

[marti0]

I just came up with this saying. How many people think this is true? So many addicts sitting in prison. Yes, they committed crimes...but some would have never, ever, committed a crime if they weren't high on drugs. Why did they do drugs in the first place? How did it get to the point of criminal activity?

Drug court is one alternative, but it doesn't work for everyone....and all drug courts are not the same. Some have compassionate Judges who like their position, and some are elected City Judges who fell into the job.

Judges should not have sole control over an addicts fate. They have too much power.

My daughter has attended countless drug group sessions over the past three years, and now that she is in prison is taking money addiction class, and any other classes that are required. Yes, she may pick up a point or two that will make her think for awhile. Most of it is repetetive.

BUT

What is in her brain that made her drug addiction lead to crime without the ability to stop? Why can't these people with all the authority see that these kids need serious one on one therapy and diagnosis?


YOU CAN'T PUNISH A DISEASE and get results, and addiction is a disease. Do judges recognize that addiction is a disease? What is the answer?

My daughter requested a therapist in prison and met with her, therapist said I can see you every six weeks!?! WTF wasting taxpayers money. My daughter said no, I need to see you every two weeks. The therapist replied that she will try. Four weeks later, no call out.

They go in as addicts, and come out hardened, having had no guidence. What is in the prison system that is positive? What happens in there that can make a person better? I hear about the sex that goes on, how to sneak stuff by guards, how to get away with as much as they can and not get caught, how someone has tried to commit suicide, how people steal socks, meds, cigs. How to come up with creative ways to survive.....and get a simple thing like deoderant. What is to be learned from all of this? Is all of this going to deter an addict from making a poor decision when on the outside? Addicts do not have this ability. They can't think: I can't do herion because i will go back to jail.

Thoughts anyone? My mind is swarming...must be going through some kind of cycle...where's the moon tonight?

[bluebella]

DISEASE very much agreed. I am in the mind thought that with my "child" he knows where to go and what he needs to do and not do. If the disease is going to take him despite all it has done to him, I cannot force him to take him "medication." By choice he quits going to meetings and fighting for things that only he can find to keep him well. I do believe, that there may be a need for literal medication. Even those of us on the outside do not get the one on one therapy needed, I had him there before he was eighteen. I have no answers, just know this is where I am also.

[nimuay]

Addiction is about 40% genetics plus a good dose of prenatal and/or early and constant stress. Can you punish it? No, but in at least some cases, you can teach trigger avoidance, networking, etc. Is it done well? Nope, not in prison and not in the free world. Otherwise, there would be a much, much higher rate of conversion from addict to non-addict.

Meanwhile, let's face facts - addicts can be very dangerous to themselves and others. That alone gives a large reason for some sort of isolation from the general population. They steal, beat others, drive deeply impaired . . . and at that point, they are also being punished for their behavior as much as for their addiction.

[Missymama]

Originally Posted by nimuay

Addiction is about 40% genetics plus a good dose of prenatal and/or early and constant stress. Can you punish it? No, but in at least some cases, you can teach trigger avoidance, networking, etc. Is it done well? Nope, not in prison and not in the free world. Otherwise, there would be a much, much higher rate of conversion from addict to non-addict.

Meanwhile, let's face facts - addicts can be very dangerous to themselves and others. That alone gives a large reason for some sort of isolation from the general population. They steal, beat others, drive deeply impaired . . . and at that point, they are also being punished for their behavior as much as for their addiction.

I want to learn more about trigger avoidance----i am one of my daughters triggers....makes me feel awful, but maybe if I learn about it, I will start tosee the signs and learn an alternative that I can use so that I will have the skill to get out of the way.

[26thncaliswag]

Originally Posted by Missymama

I want to learn more about trigger avoidance----i am one of my daughters triggers....makes me feel awful, but maybe if I learn about it, I will start tosee the signs and learn an alternative that I can use so that I will have the skill to get out of the way.

How old is your daughter? Trigger avoidance is a tool that the afflicted utilizes to vavigate around a negative situation. For a domestic batterer, a trigger might be alcohol. Not because the substance makes him do something he normally wouldn't do. But because it is a sore spot for his wife and she really gets upset if he comes home drunk. When he fights her, it's because of the alcohol. It's because he chooses to after she called him on his alcoholism. A sure-fire solution would be for him to not drink, thus eliminating a source of confrontation from the marriage.

You would be hard pressed to employ trigger avaoidance if you are someone's "trigger." Sometimes, when we look at it from a viewpoint of being someone's trigger, we become enablers. Your daughter needs to find a way to deal with some issues that she has with you.

By verbalizing what angers her when she interacts with you, she can help you find ways to communicate with her with less dissonance.

[26thncaliswag]

The problem is, which came first? The chicken or the egg.

Society had turned a blind eye to addiction. It allowed addiction to be a poor person's plight. Eventually, it has become an issue that crossed barriers of race, gender, affluence, education and class. Now, it is a serious problem, moreso than legislators imagined.

But, where do we begin? Home life is a problem for addicts. Societal woes also. finances, lack of effective treatment options. Lack of funding for indigent persons with a desire to get help. How do we stop a monster?

So, I feel you are right in some sense. Jail does not stop an addict. But how do we get the funding to properly service the people that are afflicted?

[mandymoo]

MIssy, you are not one of your daughter's triggers, she chooses to BELIEVE and convince youn that you are one of her triggers, Until she decides to take responsibility for choosing to do drugs instead of blaming you, she may continue to do drugs when she gets out. Our son was addicted to Meth twice. The first time he was successful for about 8 mo then started again. The second time, he was so bad, he lost his job, home and property and began committing thefts to buy drugs. He was caught anbd knew prison was on the way and stopped for good b/c he didn't want anymore of a sentence than he was already getting. He was clean nearly a year before going in and for 3 and a half years during his sentence (drugs are as available in prison as out). He told us that the drug programs, in and out of prison, teach you that you and only give the addict permission to take the drug, and the last time around, he had to tell the addict no and let it throw it's fit because he was not going to do any more prison than he had to. His inmate buddies, in and out, have told me the same thing. Prison is a deterrent and one does have to be responsible for the crimes they commit., because and some point you can tell the addict no, even though it hurts. The prisons are indeed very messed up and medical and social help isn't readily available and this is only going ro get worse during this recession, and I've heard reports that the recession my last as long as 20 years. So I think at some point we're going to have to try and help the addicted to realize some responsibility in their lot and to not depend as much on medicine(it's only going to become less available) or blame mom and dad and circumstances -to start dealing with today, and only today, and one day at a time. I am trying real hard to empower my students at their young age to take responsibility for every aspect of their lives and to help them to remember that there will be negative consequences for every bad decision they make. And Nimuay, excellent point, my son NEEDED, as much as it killed us and broke our hearts, to be separated from society for a time for stealing other people's property. His addiction and the addictions of others' kids breaks my heart, butt if they steal or threaten or hurt one of my kids, grandkids, students, etc in pursuit of their addiction of choice,then they need to cool their heels witth people who make like-minded bad decisions for awhile, whether they have a disease, a bad attitude or what. I have students now and then who have autism or Downs or Williams syndrome-undoubtedly disorders and incurable, but they do pay consequences for hurting others and breaking rules and they catch on pretty quickly for having done so.

[debdoodles]

I know while my son was attending NA meetings and also with the help of suboxone he remained drug free. I can't state from any facts, just my own opinion, most of the crimes that are committed are caused either by a person addiction to drugs or they have some form of undiagnosed mental health issues. I think the DOC should invest money in rehabiltation of the inmates, therapy and drug addiction programs. My biggest fear is that my son will return home more damaged than rehabilited, they offer no programs in the facility he is at. So he basically sits there without a daily job, no resources for any eduacation, or any counceling. This system does not make any sense to me at all. What a waste of a person who was productive before his incarceration.

[mandymoo]

Originally Posted by debdoodles

I know while my son was attending NA meetings and also with the help of suboxone he remained drug free. I can't state from any facts, just my own opinion, most of the crimes that are committed are caused either by a person addiction to drugs or they have some form of undiagnosed mental health issues. I think the DOC should invest money in rehabiltation of the inmates, therapy and drug addiction programs. My biggest fear is that my son will return home more damaged than rehabilited, they offer no programs in the facility he is at. So he basically sits there without a daily job, no resources for any eduacation, or any counceling. This system does not make any sense to me at all. What a waste of a person who was productive before his incarceration.

Many of the state DOCs have had to cut programming,classes and jobs (as there is unemployment on the outside, there is also unemployment on the inside)because funding has been withdrawn. Even meals were cut at our son's prison. Rehabilitation has given way to crowd control. I don't know that they any longer have the wherewith all to even provide rehabilitation. I have heard of outside organizations ( I've heard of Recovery Innovations and AA doing this) actually going into the prisons and donating their time to working with the addicts. It would be great if we could get a word out to these types of groups who can fill the needs of these inmates.

[bumblebee37]

I'm a alcoholic (not practicing that right now) but I am responsible for my actions. The disease isn't going to tap me on the shoulder and say "hey bb let's go cause some chaos tonight" even tho I wish I could blame all my mistakes and short comings on that problem.
I think a lot of the nations problem is they don't have the funds for health care let alone some rehabs so they just shuffle them off to prison hoping that justice has been served and praying that the world sees them doing their jobs. It isn't fair, it isn't right, but until someone comes up with some ground breaking resolution to the problems it isn't going to change and this site will become larger and larger.

[1bird2]

This is a tough one. I have to believe in accountability...we are all accountable, inside or out. The system is definately broken....twisted beyond anything I've ever seen. Just and fair sentences....a joke. I also have to believe that an addict can become and remain clean....but I do believe it is their choice, inside or out. I know that some use their time inside as "crime school" and others use it as a deterrent to a ciminal life. I believe that personal attitude and conviction in adverse situations is the key, inside or out. REHABILITATION....?! So far, mine is on his own....
Love and prayers, XXOO

[Gavin123]

It is all a sad truth...the whole justice system. I'm sure on some level the judges know it's a disease but in the eyes of the law, that doesn't matter. I never knew just how broken the DOC system was until my son went to prison, this is probably true with everyone else that doesn't see the system from our eyes...they don't realize just how backwards it truely is.

Take my sons case...he begged for help with his addiction, there was no beds for him. He was in the hospital 3 days before his crime...if they kept him-helped him, this might have never happened. When I think about it, it just angers me. But in the end, it was my sons choice that led him to prison for 15 yrs.

Sure, they can get caught up in the prison politics...things get snuck in and all that. It is up to our children to choose to stay away from the prison crap. I pray for my son every day he comes home a better man, my heart tells me he will...
It is a disease but also a choice how they treat the disease.
{{{HUGS}}}

[Verytiredmom]

We have been punishing people for being different for years. Addictions, mental illness. One form or another they are differnet. This country was founded to be safe from persecution, but this country has been persecuting starting with the witch hunts in Salem, MA, and continued on from then. I think if we spent the money on help instead of prison, we would be much further ahead. But, then I think we should legalize marajuna and tax it. That would help with the drug wars in other countries and help our tax deficit. The tax could also be used to help fund rehap for those who want to get off the stuff. I think we need people with fresh ideas to be our leaders, not the status quo guys and gals that seem to run for office. Most of them don't thnik for themselves. I don't think they would know to get in out of the rain, if they didn't have someone to take care of them!
Just like this debt problem, the first paychecks that should be cut or the congress, senator, president and all the retired ones as well! Boy would we see how fast they could fix this. But no, let's hurt the middle class even more! Just my rant and mho!
I will put my watermelon hat on to save my head now!

[mandymoo]

No watermelon hat neccessary my dear, free speech is always welcome at pwcip. I hear ya about cutting their pay first, Also, they could temporarily cut off aid to all the countries that crap on us anyway despite the fact we send them aid every month, instead of threatening to cut off SS benefits to scare a reaction. Legalizing pot? Nah-they taxed tobacco smokers to solve shortages and fund childrens programs-remember? The smokers just went to the reservation to save money and the pot users will just go back to the streets to do the same. Pot is the worst gateway drug there is, too.

[amickeyfan]

You are right, you should not be allowed to punish a disease! Add the fact many have a Mental Illness, they self medicate and get arrested for drugs.. not even any other crime.. and they sit in prison..Some have an underlying Mental Illness that they may not even realize it yet...

yes, the United States of America should not be allowed to punish for any disease.. be it a Mental Illness or Substance Abuse.... or both... We don't lock people up for having Diabetes or Cancer... we treat them.. we need to treat those with Mental Illnesses and Substance Abuse problems.. Merely removing them from the situation isn't going to "cure" them.. it only removes them for the time being.. that is all.... that is why there is a revolving door with those who have addictions... however those in the seats where it matters do not see this..

[nimuay]

But given the fact that, whether it be mental illness or addiction, there are many who do not respond to treatment on the outside - whether medication or talk therapy or a combination - then what do you propose to do with them? They can't be allowed to spread the results of their illness, can they?

I'm pretty sure that we've all tried to do the very best we could for our kids, but if they won't accept it, or if they decide that they don't need to take those meds any more, or if the delusions get out of control, or the paranoia starts them injuring others, or the addiction puts them on the road while they're out of their rightful minds, then there has to be some kind of isolation!

Seriously - it's not just about punishing the disease, but about protecting others from the disease.

[amickeyfan]

Originally Posted by nimuay

But given the fact that, whether it be mental illness or addiction, there are many who do not respond to treatment on the outside - whether medication or talk therapy or a combination - then what do you propose to do with them? They can't be allowed to spread the results of their illness, can they?

I'm pretty sure that we've all tried to do the very best we could for our kids, but if they won't accept it, or if they decide that they don't need to take those meds any more, or if the delusions get out of control, or the paranoia starts them injuring others, or the addiction puts them on the road while they're out of their rightful minds, then there has to be some kind of isolation!

Seriously - it's not just about punishing the disease, but about protecting others from the disease.

sentence them to where they will get help, not to a prison where there are no facilities to help them overcome their addictions and face their mental illnesses. They need to learn to accept the thing they cannot change and and change the things they can change. They learn nothing sitting behind bars. If you don't help them, once they get out, they will more than likely go right back to their old ways... it is an illness.

My son is Bipolar, he does self medicate. He doesn't see he is bipolar. He has gotten mental heath counseling (he was dx'd 7 years prior to his arrest) since going to prison. He was arrested for trafficking (he was the middleman who made the phone calls to the dealers) in a drug sting. he was a strung out junkie shooting up 3-4 times a day. The State Attorney's Office were willing to drop all charges on him if he worked as an informant for them. He refused. He went to prison. He hurt no one but himself. He isn't getting drug counseling either. He has been locked up since Feb 2009. He comes home in Sept 2011. I am petrified that he is going to go right back to drugs. Why, because he is still Bipolar and always will be. He still doesn't see that he is. He seems to think that he is "ok" and has already said, he may not go back to "roxies" anymore, he will just drink and have joint here and there to "relax".. so what has prison taught him? What has isolation taught him I haven't figured it out yet.. I don't think it has taught him anything.. other than, maybe not to shoot up roxies or help sell drugs.. but it hasn't helped him see drugs are not the way to go.. he is still an addict, he still doesn't see he has a mental illness....

While I know the addict must want to be clean for it to work, the person with the mental illness first must see they have an illness to get help. the only way they are going to see that is if it is thrown in their face, every day. Being forced into counseling and group therapy would help him see who he is.. but instead prison doesn't do that.. they throw you out on the side of the road to work.. then back behind the bars to sleep...

[amickeyfan]

Originally Posted by amickeyfan

sentence them to where they will get help, not to a prison where there are no facilities to help them overcome their addictions and face their mental illnesses. They need to learn to accept the thing they cannot change and and change the things they can change. They learn nothing sitting behind bars. If you don't help them, once they get out, they will more than likely go right back to their old ways... it is an illness.

My son is Bipolar, he does self medicate. He doesn't see he is bipolar. He has gotten mental heath counseling (he was dx'd 7 years prior to his arrest) since going to prison. He was arrested for trafficking (he was the middleman who made the phone calls to the dealers) in a drug sting. he was a strung out junkie shooting up 3-4 times a day. The State Attorney's Office were willing to drop all charges on him if he worked as an informant for them. He refused. He went to prison. He hurt no one but himself. He isn't getting drug counseling either. He has been locked up since Feb 2009. He comes home in Sept 2011. I am petrified that he is going to go right back to drugs. Why, because he is still Bipolar and always will be. He still doesn't see that he is. He seems to think that he is "ok" and has already said, he may not go back to "roxies" anymore, he will just drink and have joint here and there to "relax".. so what has prison taught him? What has isolation taught him I haven't figured it out yet.. I don't think it has taught him anything.. other than, maybe not to shoot up roxies or help sell drugs.. but it hasn't helped him see drugs are not the way to go.. he is still an addict, he still doesn't see he has a mental illness....

While I know the addict must want to be clean for it to work, the person with the mental illness first must see they have an illness to get help. the only way they are going to see that is if it is thrown in their face, every day. Being forced into counseling and group therapy would help him see who he is.. but instead prison doesn't do that.. they throw you out on the side of the road to work.. then back behind the bars to sleep...

it should read,"he has not gotten mental health counseling since in prison"
He stops his meds each time he feels better because he thinks he isn't bipolar.. he has been on various meds.. while going for counseling. Then he stops.. because he thinks he is better.. oh, and you don't "spread" Biplar.. that is not contagious..

[conager]

All people have choices to make and consequences of those choices to live with. EVen the mentaly ill can choose to not medicate or self medicate but even they have to live with the consequence of thier actions. There are no easy answers to this delimia. I think each of us face this with our kids at one point of time or another.

Here is a question: my daughter did something wrong. Should you have to pay to have her taken care of???

[conager]

Sorry for the double hit here, I could not figure out how to edit my post

I am not trying to open a can of worms here, only to see if there are any real ideas forming in your locations. Drug users need help to get off drugs and stay off drugs. Additions are not criminal but they can lead to criminal behaviour. We can not legalize drugs (legalizing booze has done nothing for the drunks or drunk driving or alochol related crimes) nor can we make every additcting item illegal (prohibition did not stop drinking or crime etc ) The mentaly ill need a place to live and learn if they are not going to take care of them selves...I just don't see prison as that place.

My daughter broke the law even though she knew better. Your taxpayer dollars are paying for her up keep just as you are paying for jails and prisons and halfway houses etc. Why don't we find the programs that work, both in the government and in the private sector, and replicate those?

[bumblebee37]

There isn't any funding out there for the help our children and loved ones needs. Rehabilitation centers cost money. I know I don't have the insurance anymore to place my son in a facility that would or could help him at this time. I guess he could have been placed in a state financed mental health facility but from what I have seen in my area it is probably worse then the prison he is in right now.
In the area I moved from they had a 'drug court' that helped families with children try to get off drugs and alcohol. Some were successful but the statistics proved that within 18 months of the state paid program these individuals were either full blown addicts again or lost their children back into the system. Last I looked it was a 12% success rate of them never returning to their previous ways. If you have someone that is addicted and wants to use (either drugs or alcohol) no one is going to stop them, not a program, and not their momma.
I don't believe jail or prison is a cure but it is probably a lower cost to the state to house them then placing them in unit such as drug rehab or mental health facility so that is where they shuffle them off too.
Please don't think what I am saying is harsh. I am up at 3 am in the morning because every freakin thing in my life sucks right now and I am fighting the urge to go talk the guy working behind the counter at the 7/11 into selling me a liter of whiskey. And I bet I could be purdy persuasive right now. What I am trying to say is I know how hard it is not to use but even with money I would have a hard time finding help or a program. It just sucks all the way round and I don't think anyone has an answer or none of us would be here.
bb

[Vixen311]

Originally Posted by conager

All people have choices to make and consequences of those choices to live with. EVen the mentaly ill can choose to not medicate or self medicate but even they have to live with the consequence of thier actions. There are no easy answers to this delimia. I think each of us face this with our kids at one point of time or another.

Here is a question: my daughter did something wrong. Should you have to pay to have her taken care of???

i disagree, sometimes the mentally ill have no idea of what planet they live on, never mind that they need to take their meds. or that they have meds. to take. but yes, you are very right about ppl. being responsible for the choices they make.

[pray4him]

Marti0, Welcome to PWCIP! This forum has helped me so much! I am in MO, and my son is 1,000 away at Rikers in NYC. He is just starting a 5 year bid that is the result of a crime he committed while he was having a severe manic episode. Nobody in my family knew that he was in big trouble. This was my son's first sign of Bipolar Disorder, which runs in my family. I have been worried all of my son's life that he would develop it, and then it happened when he was 20 years old (he turned 21 at Rikers) and 1,000 miles away!! He had befriended an evil man that got him hooked on hard drugs, which induced the mania. The career criminal then convinced my son to commit crimes. None of my son's friends and family members outside NY knew what was happening, and they all were shocked when they learned of his incarceration; he had never been in trouble before. My son was manic for about 5 months, 4 of them while he was at Rikers. He refused to turn against his co-defendant for months, saying, "he’s my friend". It was so scary, because he was facing a much longer sentence if he didn't cooperate in his own defense. I now fear that since the Bipolar was triggered, he may could very well fall into clinical depression. A mental illness is a chemical imbalance in the brain, and meds are needed to stabilize it! I also believe that many drug users are actually self-medicating (with the wrong stuff!) mental illness victims. I am so scared that my son won't get the medication and therapy he needs if his illness starts cycling. Maybe I will "see you" on the PTO mental health and NY threads! Take care of yourself ~ we'll get through this together! My son has a great attitude about bettering himself in prison. I will pray that your son does, too! (Big Hug) P4h

[mates001]

I agree with Nimuay. If harm is done to self or someone else, the addict does need to be locked up. Addicts are not generally locked up because they are taking the drug but for their behavior when doing the drug. You hear it over and over again that people and the police know where the drug houses are, who the addict are, know the dealers, etc but they are still walking the streets until they do something dangerous, or someone complains, or it causes a problem in some way that brings them out in the spotlight.
Do they lock up diabetics….yes they do if their behavior warrants it. Had a case of a poor girl who was raped by her grandfather, got pregnant and had the baby. The baby was the spit image of the grandfather. No one stepped in to help and it was just ‘life as usual’, swept under the rug, until one day her diabetes got out of control, started hallucinating, and she saw the need to “boil the devil out of the baby”. Not until they found the baby in the pot did anyone do anything about her situation, she was taken in, convicted on a CPL 730. When her blood sugar was regulated she was as sane (or insane) as you and I.
My question to all: we know what neighborhoods are drug infested, the police know who these people are, what drugs they are dealing, who is selling and who is buying……….WHY IS THIS ALLOWED TO GO ON UNADDRESSED UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS? WHY IS NOTHING DONE PROACTIVELY?

[pray4him]

I'm sorry ~ your daughter; there are so many sons in prison. Law enforcement personnel that intentionally look the other way when they know where drugs are being sold and who is selling them should not have jobs. Our children's lives are being destroyed, and the police know it? How reprehensible! There should be a way that citizens can safely report these crimes, without fearing for their lives should drug dealers find out about it.