Notice to new members intending to register - from January 9th 2012

JJS811 · #1 01-15-2012, 11:38 AM

Former Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour has been taking more flak than a WWII fighter pilot this week for pardoning 200 people, including murderers. The public outcry has ranged from "He didn't follow the Constitution" to "What's he doing letting murderers and rapists out?!" to "Why do we have this antiquated pardon system anyway?"

But to me, the saddest part is the tone of those who are essentially saying, "Once a murderer always a murderer." There is no affirmation of the human spirit here; no recognition that some people -- not all people, but some people -- can and do change and deserve a second chance out here with the rest of us.

http://sentencespeak.blogspot.com/20...rderer-do.html

yourself · #2 01-16-2012, 10:59 AM

once a murderer, always a murderer, assuming that the person's really guilty of murder. That said, a human being is more than the worst that he's ever done, and much less than the most altruistic things he's ever done. A human being is a synthesis of everything he's done, experienced, touched.

Most people recognize that under the right circumstances, anybody can kill another human being. Amazing that they don't see the difference between killing somebody and murdering somebody as merely a matter of legislative definition.

Then again, most death certificates for those executed list the cause of death as "homicide" - making the state itself a murderer. Since the citizenry of that state is the State, that means each and every citizen would be a murderer. Once a murderer, always a murderer.....

Glad the former Gov. is pardoning people. Glad people are getting another chance, a chance the justice system didn't allow them.

JJS811 · #3 01-16-2012, 01:23 PM

Thank you yourself, it's a subject that has all kinds of opinions. While I see all opinions as valid, many I can't agree with. While I understand you saying a murderer is always a murderer, as you would say of a person who is a football player they will always be that, no matter when they retire or what they do post football career, they will always have been a football player. Like a football player, I do believe the vast majority of people who kill, can go on and have a productive life outside of their label.

As you mention and I can't agree with you enough, each and every one of us has the capacity to kill. I have always said and will say again, it is a fine line between those who kill, and those of us who don't. If the right set of circumstances all came together at the same time, for us, would we be labelled as killers? I believe there is a high probability.

HannaBoe · #4 01-16-2012, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourself

once a murderer, always a murderer, assuming that the person's really guilty of murder. That said, a human being is more than the worst that he's ever done, and much less than the most altruistic things he's ever done. A human being is a synthesis of everything he's done, experienced, touched.

Most people recognize that under the right circumstances, anybody can kill another human being. Amazing that they don't see the difference between killing somebody and murdering somebody as merely a matter of legislative definition.

Then again, most death certificates for those executed list the cause of death as "homicide" - making the state itself a murderer. Since the citizenry of that state is the State, that means each and every citizen would be a murderer. Once a murderer, always a murderer.....

Glad the former Gov. is pardoning people. Glad people are getting another chance, a chance the justice system didn't allow them.

wow so everybody here thinks that under the "right circumstances" anybody can kill or murder someone else? Do you have a study on this? or is this your personal opinion?
I agree that people can change, and am happy for those obtaining pardon. But I do not think we should lessen the crime. Not everyone under certain circumstances will kill another human being. it is important for people to take responsibility for their acts and not blame the circumstances.

JJS811 · #5 01-17-2012, 06:13 AM

No study for me, my opinion is based on what inmates have told me about the circumstances of their crimes. It seemed to be a recurring theme, all it would have taken is just one thing to not have fallen into place as it did, and they would not be in prison now.

I agree with you, no crime should ever be lessoned, a murder, no matter the circumstances, is the taking of another's life. Taking responsibility is also a must in my opinion, to learn from that situation, and all that happened around it. To consider the impact on the victims family and friends, yes, this is a given.

I strongly believe people can change, redemption is often denied, as people see the crime, and make the inmate the sum total of their crime, I don't believe that is so. If you look at the lives of many convicted of murder, they were hard working family men, who got caught up in something and that was the end for them. I do believe in a great many circumstances it is something that is spontaneous. Obviously you have to remove serial killers from that, as there is no spontaneity there, but in general, yes I do believe it is circumstance, or rather a set of circumstances all coming together at one time. This can be borne out by the fact that long term sentenced offenders which are in the main killers have the lowest recidivism rate of all inmate categories at just 3%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HannaBoe

wow so everybody here thinks that under the "right circumstances" anybody can kill or murder someone else? Do you have a study on this? or is this your personal opinion?
I agree that people can change, and am happy for those obtaining pardon. But I do not think we should lessen the crime. Not everyone under certain circumstances will kill another human being. it is important for people to take responsibility for their acts and not blame the circumstances.

yourself · #6 01-20-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HannaBoe

wow so everybody here thinks that under the "right circumstances" anybody can kill or murder someone else? Do you have a study on this? or is this your personal opinion?
I agree that people can change, and am happy for those obtaining pardon. But I do not think we should lessen the crime. Not everyone under certain circumstances will kill another human being. it is important for people to take responsibility for their acts and not blame the circumstances.

sure, you know damned well you can kill. The difference between a murder and a killing is a matter of legislation. Statutes make a killing "unlawful" and a "murder" or a "manslaughter". We ask our soldiers to kill. We ask executioners to kill. We're at least marginally ok with shooting a guy who's broken into our houses. We pity the guy who clocks somebody in the jaw only to have the guy hit his head and die as he falls. We're easier on those who kill because they were drunk and got behind the wheel of a car than we are on people who deliberately run over their philandering husbands. Anti abortion activists consider all those who get, give, or aid in the giving of abortions as murderers. We even say, in some states, that killing yourself when faced with a terminal illness is ok. In Oregon, it's not just OK, you can get a physician to give you a script for the drugs to do it.

Murder is a legal definition. We argue facts so that they fit or don't fit the legal definition. Casey Anthony is not a murderer, but whether or not she killed anybody still seems a matter of debate.

And, if you think you can never be a murderer, then by all means, come to Illinois. We have a long habit of taking perfectly innocent people and sticking them in prison with the label "murderer" (we used to stuff them on death row, but Quinn got rid of that albatross for us). You, too, can get stuck with the label just as easily as anybody else.

AwareNow · #7 01-22-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HannaBoe

wow so everybody here thinks that under the "right circumstances" anybody can kill or murder someone else? Do you have a study on this? or is this your personal opinion?
I agree that people can change, and am happy for those obtaining pardon. But I do not think we should lessen the crime. Not everyone under certain circumstances will kill another human being. it is important for people to take responsibility for their acts and not blame the circumstances.

In some cases I wouldn't hold someone's murder conviction against them. If someone's wife or kids were deliberately killed and the court gave the perp a light sentence, I could understand the victim's spouse/parents doing his own justice. You just reminded of a justification for the death penalty. If the government doesn't do the job, in some cases the victim's family will regardless of the consequences.

26thncaliswag · #8 01-23-2012, 02:20 PM

Once a murderer, always a murderer is a true statement. Once a President, always a President. Once a champion, always a champion. ONce a felon, always a felon. Addicts...Dr.'s etc...

The idea that one is titled, labeled a certain moniker does not necessarily ruin that person's chances of changing for the better. It is a result of some horrific set of circumstances that culminated with some poor soul losing a life. We get uncomfortable with the idea of cerrtain accomplishments in life lingering on and perpetuating a stigma that we'd much rather live without. But we have to remember, that there are consequences to our behavior.

There are a lot of things that we as humans have done in the past that may not be shining moments in our lives. and we have long trying times trying to make up for them. A murderer is no different. There's a person there that has done something horrible for whatever reason. And there's a consequence for doing so.

**fbopnomore** · #9 01-24-2012, 04:05 PM

Reading all of the heat Gov. Barber received, I understand why politicians who wish to remain politicians are so reluctant to grant pardons. I wonder why so many people are convinced that compassion is a weakness until they, or a family member are the ones wanting a second chance.

MrsCetina · #10 01-24-2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HannaBoe

wow so everybody here thinks that under the "right circumstances" anybody can kill or murder someone else? Do you have a study on this? or is this your personal opinion?
I agree that people can change, and am happy for those obtaining pardon. But I do not think we should lessen the crime. Not everyone under certain circumstances will kill another human being. it is important for people to take responsibility for their acts and not blame the circumstances.

i agree with JJS and yourself. i think when it comes down to it, every human will kill rather than be killed. i find it hard to believe anyone who says they wouldnt. the instinct to survive supercedes morals.

alwaysfree · #11 01-25-2012, 02:41 AM

It's OK to be a killer as long as you only kill who your government wants dead. It's a big No No to kill otherwise unless it's to protect your life. Woe be to you if your government gets overthrown like is happening all over the world, then the new government starts chasing the old governments killers to kill them. Know the rules-Keep it real.

MargieS · #12 01-27-2012, 12:57 PM

Is it right to be labeled a murderer just because you saw someone kill someone and was not able to do anything about it? Think about all the kids at schools that got shot up and they didnt run to the police and tell them everything they knew. They didnt tell them how they bullied these kids into driving them crazy. So they are now all murderers that got off scott free. Your kids are killers. Well thats how the court system will look at it if they were to take your child to court. My son saw some one kill a man and he had nothing to do with it and didnt see a need to take it to trial and they judge gave my son 25 yrs. There is no justice in our country or law system.
Oh and the 19 yr old that killed the man, he got 25 to life. Im sure he will be out before my son gets out. Thats just the way the law is. Soooooooo fair.

God Bless the USA

bluedevil 2 · #13 02-23-2012, 11:19 AM

I'm glad Gov. Barbour pardon those men. The men has paid their debt to society. Everyone need a second chance. A lot more gov need to pardon inmates in their states as well. A lot of us on the outside rather see people riot. Well nothing is wrong with punishment. What if us so called up standing citizen did wrong and we was punished for life. I'm sure we all want a second chance.

AwareNow · #14 02-24-2012, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluedevil 2

I'm glad Gov. Barbour pardon those men. The men has paid their debt to society. Everyone need a second chance. A lot more gov need to pardon inmates in their states as well. A lot of us on the outside rather see people riot. Well nothing is wrong with punishment. What if us so called up standing citizen did wrong and we was punished for life. I'm sure we all want a second chance.

The concept of a "debt" to society should be reconsidered. It is incompatible with the original concept of correction or penitentiary. The word penitentiary has a similar etiology as the word repent. The point is to educate the offender to repent of their wrongdoing, not revenge nor repayment. If the offender is incorrigible then separating the offender from society is sufficient. Deliberate revenge serves no purpose.

yourself · #15 02-25-2012, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwareNow

The concept of a "debt" to society should be reconsidered. It is incompatible with the original concept of correction or penitentiary. The word penitentiary has a similar etiology as the word repent. The point is to educate the offender to repent of their wrongdoing, not revenge nor repayment. If the offender is incorrigible then separating the offender from society is sufficient. Deliberate revenge serves no purpose.

I have no problem with the concept of debt and repayment. I just don't see how warehousing people, not providing opportunity, training, education, or rehabilitation constitutes repayment. I want offenders to pay society for their wrong, but that's not done by keeping them in prison for long periods of time, bankrupting their families, and taking money out of our pockets to make sure that they are ill prepared to thrive when they come out.

Seems to me that the better route for all but the most incorrigible would be to have them work towards repairing the damage they did to their victims, society, their own families, and themselves. But those debts are never addressed. Instead of punishment, we do need to start turning towards a more restorative modality in corrections. Otherwise, what really is corrected? When does the debt actually get addressed, let alone paid?

dalesgirl · #16 02-27-2012, 09:28 PM

my man is a murderer. He is also a lot more. He has done everything he can to rehabilitate himself (he did not the system) 8 1/2 years of anger management, finding his Higher Power, attending college and learning computer skills. He has made his peace with his victim's family and owns his responsibility for his crime. He says he thinks about what he has done every day of his life. When he comes home we wants to go to school to teach anger management so he might stop some violence since he cant take back what he already did.