What should be the primary criteria for the gender classifiation of the inmate?

[CenTexLyn]

Originally Posted by dalesgirl

MTF or FTM, they should be housed by HOW THEY VIEW THEMSELVES!

Although I tend to be somewhat of a lesbian separatist (probably a tidbit about me most on PTO weren't aware of), I don't share the same views as some of the bloggers when it comes to trans-related issues. I have even represented a few post-operative people and have others I consider to be friends.

That being said, I do not concur with the view about housing based on perceived identity whatsoever. It creates the prospect of far too many security breaches and you see the perverse potential of someone like the Witherspoon SO from the recent bathroom incident in Dallas then being put in a women's facilty...they claimed to the media to be undergoing transition yet their SO registry that was updated as recently as two months ago did not even list the name they alleged to have been using for more than six years of transition.

I actually interviewed a prospective client some time back who is F2M and has had top surgery and also had all documentation changed. Discussions were had prior to transfer from county and the F2M ultimately decided THEY did not feel that they could be safe in a male facility.

Quite frankly, as a female, I abhor the prospect of having to share protected space with someone still bearing male anatomy and it would concern me even more if I was in a situation where I had to share a jail cell with someone still bearing their male anatomy. It is very MALE for the M2F's to continue to seek to force themselves into women's space no matter WHERE that space might be.

[new lady]

I doubt anybody supports policies putting inmates with full male genitalia to general female population. At least the prison system has been very sure about that. The big question is currently between the DNA and the current anatomy. The prison officials are currently seeking a case law that would clearly allow going by the DNA. There are no court rulings that would require placing inmates after the full genital surgery to the prisons corresponding their new sex. It is expected that the prison administrators all over the country would addopt he policy going by the DNA.

[darkncade]

Now, I feel I need to step back and think. From a transsexual male or FTM I believe we should ask the preferred prison. Simply because an FTM though male in their minds may feel safer in a women's. Prison even though they live as male. The same goes for MTFs I could only imagine what an Mitford would go through in a males prison. I'm not saying my thought process is right or wrong. Its mearly my opinion.

[benignneglect]

Originally Posted by ifound4ever

Please forgive me again as this is not my home forum, but I too have been very interested in seeing how your poll would in fact pan out. The advocate in me warranted me to vote E at first as I am somewhat aware of the injustices having worked in Mental Health for number of years within GLBT community.

I too have been fortunate enough to have several good friends who are in fact Gay men (boygirls as they call themselves). Now I know there is a difference between being gay and transsexual/transgendered, however I think that I have to change my vote yet again. As I have been discussing with them also, the issue with regards to incarceration and transexualism I have too changed my vote to that of B. (even though I can’t change it on the poll).

One of the main issues all be it a fairly superficial one was that MTF persons even if they had undergone the full SRS as you described would still possess certain "characteristics" (for lack of a better word) of that of a male? (not really a statement more of a question as you are in fact more knowledgeable it seems that them or I) We were talking Muscle mass and/strength. We discussed physical altercations and while a few of them myself included agreed that some women are in fact very capable of beating a man, the probability of that happening is slim. My friends explained that although they act like girls and dress like them for that matter, they are still MEN and would never think to fight a woman. (I think it should be noted that they or non op, they do not wish SRS at all) Now I like to think that physical altercations are not as prevalent in these institutions, but the reality is well… you see where I’m going. Am I making sense??? even for the post op MFT are'nt hormones and/or medication continual/ongoing? If they are a lifelong prescription what happens to a post op MTF who discontiues hormone treatments etc.?

You mentioned also that you see the difficulties regarding FTM's being housed in Men’s facilities and so without having assessed and/or addressed the issues regarding post op FTM's it would be extremely difficult to do so with that of MTF"s. Equality for all.


I hope that’s coherent my friends and I were just discussing still discussing as a matter of fact. Thanks for the cocktail conversation!!!

I think that post and even pre op transgender people should be assigned to a prison of thier gender choice. If a person truly believes and feels like they are the gender oposite of birth, that is real.

Now i do not want some female with a vigina in prison because she feels like a man, running around in GP. But if she is a man in her mind and spirit there should be accomodations made for her to NOT be in a female prison. Same for a man, even if he still has a penis but feels like a woman, he should be assigned to a female prison and accomodations should be made so he can be kept out of GP until his surgery is complete.

If the person is post op, they should be allowed in GP justlike everyone else who has the same genatalia as them. Hell gay/lesbians are in GP togethjer so why should a straight or gay transgender person be treated any differently?

EQUALITY

[Mike'sbabyboy]

I think that if a person is born a man, that person should be housed in a male prison, but in a separate section. The same for a person born a female. The only way I would be for a transsexual (male or female) being housed in their respected prison is if they have had full gender reassignment surgery. And even then, I feel they should be in a separate area. Could you imagine how many men would all of a sudden want to be a female just to be housed in a women's prison? Unwanted pregnancies? Sexual assaults? I would like to support my feelings. I got locked up in 2005 because someone stole my identity. I was taken to the county jail. I had never experienced anything like that before. I literally cried almost non-stop. One of the officers said "If I ask you a question, would you be offended?' Behind the tears (and I mean tears) I said "no." She asked me if I was gay. I said "yes." She then said "You have never been in locked up before, have you?' I said 'No." She finally asked me if I needed to be in a cell by myself. I said "yes."

Well somehow, the guys noticed I was gay...probably because of the uncontrollable crying. As they walked me through to find an empty cell, the guys were saying things like "put him in here with me." I don't know what they had on their minds, but I was not feeling it. I was horrified. I ended up having to sit there the entire day, that night, and half of the next day as my mother had to go around (7 different cities) and pay the tickets. That night, they brought in a transsexual. They didn't know where to put her. I said "she can come in with me." She was arrested for prostitution again (which is unfortunately what a lot of transsexuals do for hormones here in Jersey and New York.) She didn't speak English very well. She said to me "Mi culo es tu culo." It took me a minute to realize what she said. I said "NO, tu culo is tu culo." But the point is that I can vividly remember how the guys started to make sexual remarks to us. "One dressed like a woman and the other like a man." "Oh, I see I can get two for one." It was ridiculous. I don't know if they were serious. I even heard one guy say in a feminine voice..."I am gay too, put me in with them."

My point is that we were both treated the same way. It didn't matter about any surgeries, hormones or lack of. The prisoners just saw "fa**ots). If it is ever allowed that transsexual men be placed with women (or women with men), I promise the next issue would be gay men should be placed with women because we are looked upon as the same thing...a man who wants to be a woman. And believe me, I am not saying it's right or wrong. But it does make sense to me.

[CenTexLyn]

Originally Posted by Mike'sbabyboy

I think that if a person is born a man, that person should be housed in a male prison, but in a separate section. The same for a person born a female. The only way I would be for a transsexual (male or female) being housed in their respected prison is if they have had full gender reassignment surgery. And even then, I feel they should be in a separate area.

Generally speaking, there are not that many people in custody who have undergone the full surgical process. Classification,from a security standpoint, SHOULD be based on what is between the legs. If they are post-operative, then they should be housed accordingly and any decision to segregate coming only on the circumstances of the particular case.

Could you imagine how many men would all of a sudden want to be a female just to be housed in a women's prison? Unwanted pregnancies? Sexual assaults?

Which goes directly to why you don't house pre-operative people outside of their birth sex, no matter how much of a speshul snowflake status they otherwise want to claim. Biology matters. However, as an example, a post-operative M2T is NOT going to be in a position to impregnate ANYONE given that they no longer have the necessary equipment. Neo-vagina to vagina is NOT going to result in pregnancy.

Part of the problem facing the courts and various agencies right now is precisely the issue of violent offenders claiming, after getting to prison, that they were trans* and demanding incrementally increasing levels of treatment through the courts to the point to where you get some numbnuts like Kosilek (who only murdered his wife, nearly decapitating her in the process). Rare is the instance that you get someone who was undergoing treatment when they entered prison, but processes exist for a continuity of pharmacological care in those instances...and they would generally be housed in a safekeeping status (what some might refer in a derisive manner as the punk tank).

[Mike'sbabyboy]

[quote=CenTexLyn;7129255]"Generally speaking, there are not that many people in custody who have undergone the full surgical process. Classification,from a security standpoint, SHOULD be based on what is between the legs. If they are post-operative, then they should be housed accordingly and any decision to segregate coming only on the circumstances of the particular case."

I think this is basically what I said. We both are saying they should be housed in their respected prison and that they should be separated, obviously if that is in the best interest of those involved.

"Which goes directly to why you don't house pre-operative people outside of their birth sex, no matter how much of a speshul snowflake status they otherwise want to claim. Biology matters. However, as an example, a post-operative M2T is NOT going to be in a position to impregnate ANYONE given that they no longer have the necessary equipment. Neo-vagina to vagina is NOT going to result in pregnancy."

I know that a male to female could not get a woman pregnant...obvious. I was talking about the men who would claim that they just started the process just to be housed in a woman's prison. So again, basically what I just said.