The Dark Side Of Authority

[Firebrand]

I think June 12th, 2012 will always be a day remembered in my mind. Sometimes, you can be aware that hatred or discrimination exists in a given realm or among a certain group of people from a distance, but there’s nothing quite like walking right up on it, ya know? What started out as a police department/apartment manager/owners monthly meeting at a police sub station here in Dallas, became more of sit in among haters and most of whom I walked away from looking upon as enemies. This is the first time that I’ve been to “a meeting of minds” of this type and I’ll never forget it.

I’ve been an asst. manager over 2 properties in Dallas for the better part of 2 years and it’s been a strange affair when considering the attitudes of the people who own or lease rental property in the DFW area. We spent 3 hours or so going over some legal aspects of the eviction process here in Texas and methods for the screening of sex offenders/ex felons. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I when I first sat down, next to me was the police officer who would be addressing the issue of screening for sex offenders and ex felons. He was dressed in street clothes, not a uniform and so, I didn’t really know who he was in terms of his being among the speakers that would hold the meeting that day. He made reference to the fact that his responsibilities as a police officer had to do with monitoring sex offenders in Dallas and I should of realized he was there to cover that part of the meeting. Still, since it was my first time to attend one of these functions, I didn’t know what exactly would be covered aside from some commentary offered by a judge that rules on a number of eviction court cases at a precinct/constables office here in town. I said to him (police officer), “we work with some people who are SOs depending upon the nature of the offense and how old the crime is they committed. The same applies for ex felons, also.” He looked at me and said “Oh really? Well….uh…..O.K.” He got up just as soon as I made that comment and went to the back of the room and stood there for the remainder of the session until it was his turn to speak to the audience.

Once he came to the front of the room and addressed the 60 or so apartment owners/managers in the crowd, it was almost like being shot back in time to the Salem Witch Trials of 1692. The fact that a discussion was held on leasing an apartment to an ex felon was not really the thing that surprised me; it was the intensity and the narrow mindedness of what amounted to a one sided attack that did. How to look up someone, how to evict someone, what grounds for eviction to use, what possible lease violations made available to rely upon as proof, what to look for when someone comes on a property with the hope of being undetected….all that bit and not a word said about a solution or an alternative for the sake of the person being evicted; “this is how you find them, this is how you kick them out, this is how you contact us and good witch hunting to you all”.

The response from the other apartment owners/managers was even more shameful and obscene. I wanted to say or ask something with regard to what the answer or the solution is for someone who won’t be accepted at a property because of their past? It’s one of the few times that my sense of reason took control and so, I chose to keep silent this time around. I heard “The Sound Of Silence” by Simon & Garfunkel in my head and the verse:

“People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening”

If there’s any hope in gaining something in the positive sense from what I witnessed at that meeting then, I have to believe it begins by using wisdom, experience, a sense of purpose and a resolved determination that can only be done so with clarity and calm.

Many of us who’ve been to prison are often times one of two people when it comes to facing our enemies; we either run away in embarrassment and fear or we attack with the intent to do harm or cause death as the result of anger and resentment. Most often, we wind up going back to prison in the face of committing another felony or we self medicate through chemical abuse to shut out the pain. There is such a thing though, as keeping your enemies close to you for the sake of knowing what needs to be done and for the sake of not having to go very far to see that it’s accomplished.

I do my part where trying to help other ex felons is concerned with regard to housing and especially those who are sex offenders. I’ll go on line and try to find a place that one of them can go to if by chance, we can’t work with them. There are places that will, but you have to look. Where this other issue is concerned regarding what I saw at the police department, I don’t know where to begin in finding a solution when it comes to the beliefs & hatreds of others. I’m on parole and will be for another 11 years so, it’s not like I’m immune to any of this or beyond it happening to me. At the moment, I’m provided for in terms of a job, home, transportation, good health, a small amount of savings and enough to eat. My needs are met at the moment, but the moment can change for all or any one of us on a bad day. What are your thoughts?


Thoughts from Firebrand

[Nickel Timer]

Yeah, that's pretty crazy. I have some horror stories of police going out of their way to fuck with people myself. One detective became so obsessed with me back in my teenage years that he proactively called my employers and got me fired from a couple jobs by insinuating that I was under investigation for a crime which he suspected me of being involved with, something some of my other friends at the time were involved in.

Desperate and unemployed, I ended up resorting to crime myself. That's how I got my original Burglary convictions. I certainly wouldn't have resorted to Grand Theft if I was still gainfully employed. Looking back, I really should have filed a complaint with police Internal Affairs and got the guy shit-canned for his unethical behavior. At least he left me alone after I served my little 6-month boot-camp and landed a good-paying job right when I got out.

But I will never forget. There are some really bad apples out there, like with any profession.

[OffenderNoMore]

I read this thread last night and added my thank you but I needed to think about it before I answered simply due to the fact that even though I know without a doubt that haters exist, the thought behind your meeting really pissed (for lack of a better or nicer term) me off. I also needed to process it out because I did not want to turn this into a whine session.

Having said all of that, let's begin shall we? In my experience, I generally can go anywhere and do anything and for many ex's they have background checks ran, as far as I am concerned because I don't "look or act" like an ex offender most do not run background checks on me. Although this is totally not cool and it is unfair, it has been my experience. I will say that my husband and I rented one of those really nice temporary apartment things off of 183 in Dallas a few years ago and initially had no problem. We only planned to stay a week, but we were there for maybe two days when the manager came to the door and gave us the boot. We had both listed our histories. According to her, I could stay, but he would have to go and at that point she did not want to give me my money back, I ended up getting the remaining balance back but because he had a burglary, he was a risk that they were not willing to take.

Another example I would like to bring up is a job that I quit. I worked in a service place, after about ten times of being "chastised" for not turning on a night light or not turning off the fans and blowers, I started to have someone stay in with me at closing to make sure that I did it all. There was one day that I went in to get my check and was informed (once again) that I had failed to turn on the night light before I left. I called my witness to come up and my boss called me and her a liar, so I did what anyone who has had enough would do, I surrendered my keys and I quit. Approximately ten days later, I had two detectives show up at my door because my ex boss called and said that someone with a key had come in and stole quite a bit of change and cash. She automatically assumed that since I had been to prison, it had to have been me and that I must have made a key and just had to be assuming that I let myself in. To make a long story short, I allowed to the detectives to search my house and my truck and they tore both up looking for large amounts of change and cash. At the end of the search the detective ask me why I quit, I told him. Apparently she never mentioned that nice little fact. To make a long story short, not even a week later they caught an ex employee in there wiping the place out, one who had no criminal history, but because I had one, they just assumed it was me. I won't say this was my first experience with the dark side, my first experience had to do with the first church I went to when I was released, I had volunteered for something there and they did a background check and I was informed that I could not participate in any sort of ministry due to the fact that I am a felon. It did not matter that I was a state jail, non violent felon, all they needed to know was that I am a felon. That experience very nearly ran me out of ever going to another church.

My one other thought I would like to add to this is treatment by people. I have known people who wanted me to work for them and they expected that I would offer my services for minimum wage due to the fact that I am a felon. When I refused, they actually were indignant because they felt that I owed society, so therefore I should provide a service that normally gets $30.00 an hour for $7.25. I have had my heart broken and at times, very nearly my spirit, due to this dark side that we all have been exposed to.

I truly can not number the amount of times I have heard people bad mouth those who have been down in my presence and the ones who were doing it did not know that I was "one of those people" until I finally turned around and said, "Thanks for sharing your opinion of me, by the way, I am a three time felon." Then I walked out.

I find it appalling as I think back to the last time I was sentenced and the judge said, "My sincere wish for you is that you get out and become a productive and contributing member of society." I look back at that now, with the experiences I have had, and I find it truly amazing that I had the wherewithal to become reformed, to face challenges that many have never faced and to know that I have not only survived, but I am now thriving. To realize, that although everyone says the same thing about becoming reformed, it is those very same people saying those things that are setting up the ex offender up for failure. This to me is an injustice, unfortunately as you stated Firebrand, what are we to do? Either shut up and go our way and make it within the law as best as we can or let that anger build up to the point that we either commit another crime or turn to chemicals for release. In a sense this is a lose-lose situation and I wished there was a way to stop it but unfortunately, I made my bed, I have to live in this world and I still have to live with the bigotry's of those who assume that they are better than I because they never got caught.

[Real Checker]

At the risk of sounding like a witch hunter myself, you have to consider what the scope of an apartment manager's responsibilities are. You would know that better than I because I haven't even lived an apartment in almost 25 years. So let me ask. Is it the responsibility of an apartment manager to assure their evicted tenants secure housing once they are out? Is it the apartment managers responsibility to assure a tenant has a job or other source of income to pay their rent? I'm no expert, but it seems to me like the mangers responsibilities would be limited to collecting rent, screening applicants, maintaining the real estate, and pretty much just make sure the property is bringing in a maximum income with the least expense. I cannot imagine there is a social responsibility that comes with the job ... except for a personal sense of decency and morality.

Having said that, and if you think my statements are accurate (and I could be wrong, I know) then you should look at that meeting from an objective point of view. I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I understand ... but not everyone has the capacity to care. That cop for instance, he is programmed NOT to care. It sounds to me like the jerk just did what was required and nothing more.

[msgreenthumb67]

I feel you all on this thread. I have often wondered HOW an ex-felon who WANTS to live a law abiding life CAN when most won't give him/her a decent job, to find a place that will allow you to live there without the rent being MUCH higher than the norm, etc. I will be marrying my ex-felon when he runs his time out and comes home to me. I realize maybe much better than he does how difficult many will make our life but he is so WORTH anything to me and I'm no stranger to adversity anyway. I will do my utmost to help him find a decent job....we will seek a place to live through private owners and pray God prepares the way before us. I know He will because we both seek Him and strive to please Him in thought, word and deed. I hate the way this nation has turned it's back on God and even most who "walk with Him" do not seem to even see Matthew 25!!! I am DAILY THANKFUL to our loving God who does not look at us and judge us like men do....but loves us enough to work with us to become His GOOD & FAITHFUL servants whether we are "good" or ex-con!!! God doesn't use the things/people that the holier than thou group believes!!! He has always been FOR the underdog....He raises you UP, not tear down. The LETTER of the law KILLS, but the Spirit giveth LIFE!! II Corinthians 2:6b

Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:10
John 6:63; Romans 2:20-24, 29
James 2:10-20, 26

Yeah....I get a little fired up over injustices! Hahaha

1 Corinthians 1:25-29

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Real Checker

At the risk of sounding like a witch hunter myself, you have to consider what the scope of an apartment manager's responsibilities are. You would know that better than I because I haven't even lived an apartment in almost 25 years. So let me ask. Is it the responsibility of an apartment manager to assure their evicted tenants secure housing once they are out? Is it the apartment managers responsibility to assure a tenant has a job or other source of income to pay their rent? I'm no expert, but it seems to me like the mangers responsibilities would be limited to collecting rent, screening applicants, maintaining the real estate, and pretty much just make sure the property is bringing in a maximum income with the least expense. I cannot imagine there is a social responsibility that comes with the job ... except for a personal sense of decency and morality.

Having said that, and if you think my statements are accurate (and I could be wrong, I know) then you should look at that meeting from an objective point of view. I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I understand ... but not everyone has the capacity to care. That cop for instance, he is programmed NOT to care. It sounds to me like the jerk just did what was required and nothing more.

Yes, there is a great deal of truth in what you say, Checker. Perhaps I took the meeting too personal. Still, I wasn’t surprised that the screening of ex felons was gone over, it was more the way that it took place which got into my feelings. It’d be like going to a barbershop with the idea of getting a hair cut, only to leave with a part of your ear cut off, ya know?

[Real Checker]

I do know what you mean Firebrand. I have talked to people, some I considered friends, who were absolutely unreasonably static in their view on felons an ex-felons. One person I know who is in the same line of work as me but for another company has a "lock 'em up and throw away the key" view of any criminal regardless of the charge. He sincerely has an extreme attitude about crime and punishment ... and all of it unreasonable. He has no clue of my own background, but I have tried to change his view on certain things. Things like the industry we are in giving chances to ex-felons for employment. His attitude is they should have thought of that before they committed the crime. There's just no way to get him to budge on that backwoods mentality. These days when we talk I always steer clear of that kind of conversation because I know it will leave me mad and nauseous.

Many years ago, probably about 30 of them, I dated a girl about two or three weeks and we really got along good. We were like peas and carrots (as Forrest Gump might say). One day I got the bright idea to tell her I had done time in prison before. At that time I already has three incarcerations under my belt. She was like, "you should have told me that." and proceeded to tell me to go to hell and never call her again. Her judgment was not based on what she knew about ME, but what she thought about ex-convicts. I wasn't too hurt loosing her friendship because she pissed me off, but I was hurt big time for being treated like a rabid leper. It made me sick to my stomach.

We all have to remember that ultimately what is important is how we value ourselves and not so much how others value us ... especially those who do not know us.

On the other hand, when I interviewed for my job one of the persons who interviewed me was a manager who used to be a drug enforcement detective for SAPD. The others who were in the decision loop put a lot of weight on his opinion because they figured he'd know better than them if I was worth taking a chance on. I thought, "oh boy, here it goes ... this guy is going to say I'm too big a risk." He didn't. I got hired, and even though I don't know what his official opinion of me was, I do know he thought well enough to recommend me for the job. Surprising, but it sure keeps ME from being prejudiced as well. I cannot assume someone of authority will be unreasonable ... even though I know there is a high probability they will be unreasonable I have to give them that chance to prove it one way or the other.

[LifeTraveler]

My goodness, what a thought provoking post!! I think the biggest problem with regular John Q Public and Society is that they don't have a clue what it is like for an ex-felon to reintegrate into society. Hell, until I became associated with an ex-felon I know I didn't have a clue.

Sure, I had a couple of nephews that had been to county jail, but they came out and went right back to their jobs and homes. I really didn't have a clue until my husband came home from prison, and I saw how society shunned the daylights out of him no matter how hard he tried.

So,what is the solution?

[dixiebelle1973]

I have a feeling my man wont be able to.find work. He's going to have to resort to disability because of his cancer anyway. In turn I won't be allowed my normal American rights of having a haunting riffle etc. I like to hunt. I seriously think the USA has some really messed up laws. Its all about making money not about keeping people safe. I can understand if the person did something violent....Benny didn't. He really didn't do anything. Its sad how they have to struggle so.hard to live decently in turn it can drive them back to doing wrong because society refuses yo let them succeed.

[dixiebelle1973]

Hunting...sorry my adroid phone likes to rewrite my words!

[msgreenthumb67]

Yeah...mine too! It's called auto"correct" but is wrong at least as much as it's right....maybe more....and ALWAYS at inconvenient times you forget the gremlins are messing with your words!!! :SMILE:

1 Corinthians 1:25-29

[SusanWayward]

I keep passing this title by and thinking:

Yes, the Dark Side of Authority, the same folks who gave the world scarlet letters and yellow stars.

The Dark Side of Authority, it stigmatizes, scapegoats, represses and power trips on the vulnerable, the powerless & the weak. We could also call it Institutionalized Sociopathy.

For my younger LO with a felony record, I pray that he can continue to be resilient, be creative and keep thinking outside the box as he rebuilds his life.

The Dark Side throws up a lot of obstacles but none of them are insurmountable.

If you can't scale the mountain, maybe you can go around it.

Anyway, one other comment about housing that your post brings to mind - I'm up here in the "liberal" Northeast. We have very strict eviction laws. You can't evict a tenant or refuse to renew a lease without good cause and the specific "good causes" are clearly spelled out in the law.

A few years ago, the law was amended to add "having a drug offender in the household" to the list of good causes to evict tenants. No other felony makes the family evictable - only a drug felony.

Landlords can screen prospective tenants and refuse to rent to felons (any felon) but the only category of felony that qualifies EXISTING tenants for eviction are "drug felonies".

And, in this state, there is felony possession of marijuana and relatively small amounts can also qualify as "intent to distribute". Both of which would make an individual or a family evictable, if the LL so chooses.

The only bright spot is, the LL has just 2 years after conviction or release from prison (whichever is later) to "find out" and evict the family. So if you pay your rent on time, keep your head down and don't get noticed, you can potentially exhale after your 2 years is up.

We don't just have people's attitudes to contend with, we also have the law enabling "dark side" behavior & attitudes. That's why I say, Institutionalized Sociopathy.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by SusanWayward

I keep passing this title by and thinking:

Yes, the Dark Side of Authority, the same folks who gave the world scarlet letters and yellow stars.

The Dark Side of Authority, it stigmatizes, scapegoats, represses and power trips on the vulnerable, the powerless & the weak. We could also call it Institutionalized Sociopathy.

For my younger LO with a felony record, I pray that he can continue to be resilient, be creative and keep thinking outside the box as he rebuilds his life.

The Dark Side throws up a lot of obstacles but none of them are insurmountable.

If you can't scale the mountain, maybe you can go around it.

Anyway, one other comment about housing that your post brings to mind - I'm up here in the "liberal" Northeast. We have very strict eviction laws. You can't evict a tenant or refuse to renew a lease without good cause and the specific "good causes" are clearly spelled out in the law.

A few years ago, the law was amended to add "having a drug offender in the household" to the list of good causes to evict tenants. No other felony makes the family evictable - only a drug felony.

Landlords can screen prospective tenants and refuse to rent to felons (any felon) but the only category of felony that qualifies EXISTING tenants for eviction are "drug felonies".

And, in this state, there is felony possession of marijuana and relatively small amounts can also qualify as "intent to distribute". Both of which would make an individual or a family evictable, if the LL so chooses.

The only bright spot is, the LL has just 2 years after conviction or release from prison (whichever is later) to "find out" and evict the family. So if you pay your rent on time, keep your head down and don't get noticed, you can potentially exhale after your 2 years is up.

We don't just have people's attitudes to contend with, we also have the law enabling "dark side" behavior & attitudes. That's why I say, Institutionalized Sociopathy.

I enjoyed what you had to say. You’re very bright and I’m grateful to you for sharing.

[Paulie'sGirl]

What I think is incredible...I can charge up $10,000 or $100K worth of credit and file for bankruptcy. In essence, I "stole" the money and blew it on what ever I wanted, and with the bankruptcy, I chose not to pay it off.

Now, if I "steal" over $2500, and in some stated it's as low at $250, it's considered a felony.

My bankruptcy is off my record in 7 years. Why does a felony charge follow someone for life!!! This is where we really need to change things "politically".

According to the Sentencing Report, released in 2012, but used 2010 numbers, there are over 5.5 million felons.

In 2010 there were 1.4 million in prison, 77,000 in jail, 535,000 parolees, 1.2 million on felony probation, and 2.6 million ex-felons!!

REALLY, we have the highest incarceration rate in all the world. Today, it's estimated that almost 25% of the US population has spent some time behind bars!!

Eventually, these 5.5 million ex felons will be looking for work, looking to (hopefully) contribute to society. And they will all be struggling in society with a "record".

But, for me, if I charge up $$$$$ in credit and file for bankruptcy, it's off my record in 7 years!! Something is seriously wrong here!! We need to change the laws and for ex-felons, assuming they are out and not in trouble again....let their past "fall off their record", the same way credit does!!

Once time is served, close the book and let them start lives anew! The police may still have access, but the general public should not have access to someone's past life! Especially for a "wrong doing" 7, 10, or 15 years ago!

[prisonlady]

This is not fair, but there seems to be an explanation. Bankruptcy is not meant to protect ordinary consumers as much as the upper and upper-middle class, who wish to be able to invest and borrow money without severe repercussions should they fail. Financial risk-taking is actually seen as a positive at higher levels, although not so much at the level of the individual who has trouble making ends meet. The bankruptcy protection protects overextended consumers of modest means just because it was not restricted to the rich people it was meant to protect. On the other hand, stealing outright is severely punished, sometimes even to ridiculous extents such as firing or even prosecuting employees who took home company property they were ordered to discard, such as an old candy bar or a partially used can of paint. Corporate property and the property of the rich is well-protected and old felonies are seen as a risk, even if that doesn't make sense.

[xlabel]

I like that line, Susan Wayward. If you can't scale the montain , just go around it. It just requires more legwork is all. The apartment that I most enjoyed in all my years of renting was the one that required the least amount of paperwork (1 page and didn't even ask about criminal history).
I've inquired about apartments before and been hung up on just telling LL, "I have a g/f, no we're not married", and that was before any criminal history was asked about. Let bigots be bigots. I can't change the rules of the game, I can only change how I react to them.

[Real Checker]

Originally Posted by Paulie'sGirl

What I think is incredible...I can charge up $10,000 or $100K worth of credit and file for bankruptcy. In essence, I "stole" the money and blew it on what ever I wanted, and with the bankruptcy, I chose not to pay it off.

Now, if I "steal" over $2500, and in some stated it's as low at $250, it's considered a felony.

My bankruptcy is off my record in 7 years. Why does a felony charge follow someone for life!!! This is where we really need to change things "politically".

According to the Sentencing Report, released in 2012, but used 2010 numbers, there are over 5.5 million felons.

In 2010 there were 1.4 million in prison, 77,000 in jail, 535,000 parolees, 1.2 million on felony probation, and 2.6 million ex-felons!!

REALLY, we have the highest incarceration rate in all the world. Today, it's estimated that almost 25% of the US population has spent some time behind bars!!

Eventually, these 5.5 million ex felons will be looking for work, looking to (hopefully) contribute to society. And they will all be struggling in society with a "record".

But, for me, if I charge up $$$$$ in credit and file for bankruptcy, it's off my record in 7 years!! Something is seriously wrong here!! We need to change the laws and for ex-felons, assuming they are out and not in trouble again....let their past "fall off their record", the same way credit does!!

Once time is served, close the book and let them start lives anew! The police may still have access, but the general public should not have access to someone's past life! Especially for a "wrong doing" 7, 10, or 15 years ago!

Even though I follow your logic and agree with your conclusion I should point out that you cannot just stop paying your debts and file bankruptcy. There has to be an inability to pay ... a loss of income or other factor which significantly reduces you ability to pay your debt. That has no criminal intent if you ask me ... but i do see your point about the forgiveness aspect. Seven years you have a clean slate, and with a criminal background it is forever.

[4ever love]

I think what she's getting at is there are ways to: move your money, assets, vehicles and so called, "hiding them" then charge up those cards and file bankruptcy. If the bankruptcy counselor can't find those assets to attach to, the bankruptcy proceeds. Hence, acquiring through unethical means. Real property cannot be taken through bankruptcy, in and of itself. But if you fail to pay your mortgage, the lender (trustee) has the right to foreclose.

Lots of people, re-financed back when stated income loans were available. Bought boats, cars, etc. Their homes being upside down now, can walk. Tax law gives forgiveness through 2012. Obama will surely extend that timeframe. Most lived in the homes for a least a year making no mortgages, before they were forced to move. They moved out with cash saved in hand, with their "toys" to a rental home.

Some bought several homes with 100% financing and rented them out. Landlord collected the rent, but never made the mortgage. Renter gets Notice of Trustee Sale taped to door, and guess what? 30-60 days to move, unless they can move immediately and collect cash for keys.

Criminal, unethical, or wise investing?

Then in 2yrs., not 7yrs, a loan institution will lend to them again. The rate won't be A+ rating, but in these situations, they are working the system and could care less if the rate is 14%.

The Dark Side of Authority is a great in-depth topic and I'm glad Firebrand started the thread. Many who belong to the Dark Side of Authority are not just police/PO/CO, etc. Rather anyone who has taken their position of public trust over to the "dark side".

Thanks for another great post!

P.S. There are people who genuinely put money down on their homes, and have had to walk after trying really hard to stay afloat. An unprovoked loss. My daughter is one.

[SusanWayward]

Bankruptcy itself is an expression of "forgiveness" in the law!

You receive forgiveness for the debts you are not able to pay and a clean slate to start fresh!

It's an acknowledgement that people can change and do better after being given a second chance.

Something that was recognized in American culture, even in the criminal justice system, until very recently.

In the criminal courts (where I've lived) you had the possibility of expungement, after a certain period of time, then they started exempting certain drug crimes from the possibility of expungement, then there was the SO registry that gets more and more draconian, you can't expunge that requirement, now we have more and more invasive background checking so that even if you DO get an expungement your name still appears on some of these commercial databases that sell public records info and do not update just because you got an expungement.

Yes, chances are getting better and better that a person's mistakes will follow them for life and "can and will be used against them" when they try to access some very basic needs of life in the USA.