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egbdf65 · #1 07-28-2012, 11:13 AM

I believe the roles of predator and victim are easily interchangeable.

Think of it. Every morning, human beings wake up in a state of predation. "I gotta get here, I gotta get this, I gotta do this,", etc. etc.

So I get out onto the road in a predatory state and I drive too fast and I make some car in front of me my victim because he's not going fast enough.

Or the phone rings and it's a family member who says something passive-aggressive to me because they're not feeling good and they're the predator and I'm their victim.

Or lady behind the cash register at Macy's tells me the item I want isn't on sale after all so I take my disappointment and anger out on her and I am a predator and she ends up my victim.

Or I get into personal relations with some guy I know who isn't in a good place and there are warning signs and stop signs everywhere and red flags waving in front of my face and that little voice inside of me says, "Don't do it," but I do it anyway because I just can't help it. I justify it to myself by saying I can help him...he's all alone and no one else has the big heart I do...I know what it's like to be the underdog, I understand him.

But really I am looking for someone to save me...someone to give me relief from my own life and problems...or maybe I'm just bored and don't know what to do next and this seems like a good idea...or maybe I'm trying to run away from Mommy and Daddy and this guy will save me and my family will give me respect...or maybe if I have a tough boyfriend no one will give me any shite in my family or my town...

So the truth is, he's looking for a distraction from his life and so am I....aren't we both in a predatory state of mind in the beginning? And here I am again, looking for something from a person who can't give it...it's not that he won't, he just simply can't...he's no more equipped than I am to be saving someone else. And in the end I always somehow get victimized...I am left alone again wondering how it all happened...

I don't really know why I did it...I keep trying to go over it and over it in my mind...I go back and forth between hate and love and guilt and anger...I blame him and I hate myself..I'm another year older and even more lost than before.

My Higher Power was that little voice that said, "Don't do it,"...God and the 12 steps have helped me to see the answers to the things I do...those answers are buried way deep down beneath the pain of a lifetime...the truth is I'm afraid.

I'm afraid to face my life alone...I'm afraid of maturing emotionally and filling in the lost growth I missed since age 14...I'm afraid to take responsibility for my life and give myself a chance here...I'm afraid to let God show me what He and I can do together...I'm afraid to go learn how to do pottery or go back to school or learn how to dance...I'm afraid I'm not good enough to have nice friends...I'm afraid to change.

Fear is an evil and corroding thread that stops us from being what God wants us to be...it causes us to get into emotional entanglements with others instead of moving forward and being our best. Fear tells us, "You can't do it, you're not smart enough, you're not pretty enough, you know your past and you don't deserve it, settle for this instead..."

Fear tells us to focus on someone else's problems instead of our own. It tells us not to go to the meeting or give ourselves a chance.

Just for one day, remember the things you are capable of, the talents God has given you, the things you gave up on as a teenager. Take your focus off of other people and allow them the dignity to make their own choices. Spend time sitting quietly with God...ask Him what He wants you to be....ask Him for the strength and the courage to face your fears - and then take action.

You can do it.

Lunastarz · #2 07-28-2012, 11:50 AM

I love this. I so needed this too. Thanks

nimuay · #3 07-30-2012, 08:47 PM

I can only tell you what worked for me - allow. Don't fight to resist because it puts more energy into the ugly. Don't even think of things the way you've written. The words you use are important, they have vibes and all of yours are negative!

Predatory? NO! I do not wake up predatory. I wake up to the inevitable clashes because not everyone else in the world is me, and that brings some disturbances. I know I'll run into small confrontations with the horses, because their natures and abilities are different from mine. But those things do not make me negative or predatory.

I feed the hummingbirds. That is symbiotic, because they get the garden and the nectar and I get the beauty of their presence, the flash of their throats, the incredible swoop of their mating flights.

I teach riders, and that too is symbiotic. My brain stays alive and flexible trying to explain better and better to other minds what my body already knows. Yep, I get money, and they get the joy of being absolutely in the now and communicating with another speciesl

The outlook sounds so different, doesn't it? That may be internal chemistry, or early training, or belief system, or heaven knows what else. But I urge you to allow each of those you come in contact with to be themselves without denting your personal positivity (and you want desperately to be working on that!).

yourself · #4 07-30-2012, 10:10 PM

I'm in agreement with Nim. I've never been in an abusive relationship as an adult. I don't want to be saved, and I don't want to save anybody. I'm not a predator, nor am I attracted to predators.

If family can't do anything but play passive aggressive games with me, they are not family and I refuse to be chained by their limitations. I don't jump from one relationship to another because in the end, we all die alone.

We all owe this world one death. It's up to us to choose that death, and what we do between now and that death. I refuse to be a victim. Instead, I advocate for victims so that they know they don't have to define themselves as victims. Instead, I live in the woods because the woods are beautiful, and I even love the drama of owls at night. I care for the people in my life, and they care for me. I do not have time to lose on situations that don't promote love and improve the quality of the world around me.

I read, make music, and enjoy the gifts that are out there in nature. I don't wake up predatory, I don't live predatory, and I don't go to sleep afraid. A long time ago, I came to a conclusion about what love is, and what it is not. I grew up in a love-less environment, and nobody deserves that. As an adult, I choose how to live my life, what to emphasize, and what to avoid. If I see red flags, I'm holding you at arm's distance and you are not becoming a part of my personal reality.

I'm not out to change anybody but myself. As an advocate in DV situations, I'm giving information, and I'm giving people the space necessary to re-evaluate their lives and choose to get the help they need. I'm not forcing them to get help, I'm just giving them space and opportunity - the exact same space and opportunity I wish I had when I was a kid.

My life and my happiness isn't dependent on whether I'm in a relationship or not. The space and opportunity to continue improving the world around me erodes if I allow myself to be in such a relationship. I need to be content with who I am and what I have to offer.

Fear does not rule my life. It is not ever present in my life, and that leaves me with a lot more time and energy to pour into things that actually improve me, and improve the world around me. As a result, I'm aware of how connected we all really are, as well as the limits to my ability to impact anybody. I'm fine with that - it helps me focus on what's important.

We all owe this world one death. I want mine to be on my terms, and not with somebody else's hands around my throat. And, if I get into an accident tomorrow and die, it will be a good death. I'll be able to look back on my life with little regret, and no fear.

bumblebee37 · #5 07-31-2012, 12:04 PM

I dunno, I disagree with the self-victimizing theory. I work daily with victims, all ages, shapes and sizes. I believe it is more of a battle of helping these victims find themselves and understanding they have 'self-worth'. I see the worst of the worst, I see children under 18 years of age that will not make eye contact, that will not accept a kind word or a hug, that will not believe in themselves because it has been beaten out of them. I also see children that live as they were taught sparking out in fits of rage, biting, screaming, uncontrollable, and deep inside full of fear. But I don't see self victimizing. It is hard to get someone abused to see nothing but flowers and rainbows when they have met the back of a hand for making eye contact with others... It takes a long time to get someone past wanting to call, write and have contact with their 'predator' because most believe they belong with or to that person. It is HARD to give 'self worth' back to that person and it takes more then meetings, counseling, and talking them into it. The first step is to get them to trust you enough to reach out beyond what they know and have lived with.
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Lunastarz · #6 07-31-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumblebee37

I dunno, I disagree with the self-victimizing theory. I work daily with victims, all ages, shapes and sizes. I believe it is more of a battle of helping these victims find themselves and understanding they have 'self-worth'. I see the worst of the worst, I see children under 18 years of age that will not make eye contact, that will not accept a kind word or a hug, that will not believe in themselves because it has been beaten out of them. I also see children that live as they were taught sparking out in fits of rage, biting, screaming, uncontrollable, and deep inside full of fear. But I don't see self victimizing. It is hard to get someone abused to see nothing but flowers and rainbows when they have met the back of a hand for making eye contact with others... It takes a long time to get someone past wanting to call, write and have contact with their 'predator' because most believe they belong with or to that person. It is HARD to give 'self worth' back to that person and it takes more then meetings, counseling, and talking them into it. The first step is to get them to trust you enough to reach out beyond what they know and have lived with.
bb

I agree bumblebee you've made a damn good point. Although as a victim I have questioned the fact that I've made myself a victim. I also see where my self esteem was beaten down by others and I fell into self victimization because I didnt feel I was worthy to defend myself from vicious attacks. Every time I tried I was kicked down even further by family so gave up because I said to myself something must be wrong with me. Therefore, i became a victim of my own self defeating thoughts. Victims of a tragedy are always defeated but when we rise up and learn our self worth then we are no longer a victim to the very thing that defeated us.

bumblebee37 · #7 07-31-2012, 06:19 PM

Nah Luna, I doubt anyone allowed themselves to be a victim. It isn't like the first time you ever met whomever abused you they just walked up and whipped your ass. And I know for a fact the kids I deal with didn't asked for what has happened to them.
Personally, and not meant as an insult, I feel the OP thread is more a AA thread. It sort of reminds me of the lectures I heard and use to give to people wanting to go buy a bottle. I think it was made with the best of intentions but I don't want the ladies here or coming across this to believe they either allowed their abuse nor will they turn and abuse someone down the line because they had a bad day.
If I offended the OP I apologize. I just don't want anyone to have their feelings hurt or start second guessing themselves that they allowed anything.
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egbdf65 · #8 07-31-2012, 06:37 PM

I didn't expect that this would be a well-received thread, but I'm glad I got some thinking and conversation happening.
I mention these issues because the only way to stop patterns is to look at the truth - which many often call "negative".

yourself · #9 07-31-2012, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egbdf65

I didn't expect that this would be a well-received thread, but I'm glad I got some thinking and conversation happening.
I mention these issues because the only way to stop patterns is to look at the truth - which many often call "negative".

I think you're grasping to find patterns to fit your thesis.

Yes, we're all animals, but just being an animal doesn't mean you live in a state of constant threat and predation, especially if you're at the higher end of the food chain.

If you were right, then far more people would be aggressive drivers all the time, and violence, actual physical confrontation due to aggressive driving habits would occur much more frequently than they do (I believe AAA released a statistic a number of years ago that showed less than half a percentage of road aggression devolves into violence).

If you were right, giving one's self over to god would be an integral step in all forms of therapy, when in fact it's primarily used in peer based addiction therapeutic formats.

Further, you fail to define "self-vitimization". A common reading of the term would be turing yourself into a victim - a volitional act, so that one embraces the role of victim. DV patterns are DV patterns, but only a small percentage of DV victims choose to live a life as a victim, to the point that they will dump an abuser who's actually changed and got out of the abuser role, in order to find an abusive partner.

Self victimization is quite different than a deficit in self-esteem, and you seem to be equating the two. If they were interchangable, then an increase in self esteem would not take a person out of the DV cycle, and all DV therapy would be geared towards turning off that part of the brain - presumably a white matter area - responsible for predation relationships. That would make DV a primarily chemical problem.

You have some threads of interesting ideas, but you really need to engage in more research before they'll come together into something a bit more cohesive.

bumblebee37 · #10 07-31-2012, 07:49 PM

quote: I mention these issues because the only way to stop patterns is to look at the truth - which many often call "negative".

Again, this is Alcoholic Anonymous logic.

There's a big difference between getting slapped down by a 'predator' or a bottle. Hell, they don't even compare.

Lunastarz · #11 07-31-2012, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumblebee37

Nah Luna, I doubt anyone allowed themselves to be a victim. It isn't like the first time you ever met whomever abused you they just walked up and whipped your ass. And I know for a fact the kids I deal with didn't asked for what has happened to them.
Personally, and not meant as an insult, I feel the OP thread is more a AA thread. It sort of reminds me of the lectures I heard and use to give to people wanting to go buy a bottle. I think it was made with the best of intentions but I don't want the ladies here or coming across this to believe they either allowed their abuse nor will they turn and abuse someone down the line because they had a bad day.
If I offended the OP I apologize. I just don't want anyone to have their feelings hurt or start second guessing themselves that they allowed anything.
bb

No I am not saying that anyone purposely allowed themselves to be a victim, we only became victims from conditioning. I grew up in a abusive, controlling and manipulative environment and "I" allowed others to control me without noticing it. I got into an abusive relationship because "I" allowed others to make me feel unworthy by what they did to me, then I went out and unconsciously wore my unworthiness on my sleeve which attracted more predators all because I brought the lie that they sold me as the truth. However, I didn't purposely just throw myself out there and say "Here I am, come beat the shit out of me" NO! but I did not stand firm and defend myself because of my faulty belief system built by the persons who were "supposed" to nurture me.

I understand why I have a fucked up view of myself, thanks to my nurturers but there comes a time in your life where you stop believing what those toxic people say about you or stop basing who you are on how they treat you and start to see your own value. But as a person who is no longer a victim, I know I will not become a predator because "I" am aware of how it feels to be Preyed upon and that is just not in my nature. But as victims of violence we can be predatory in a non negative sense.

Such as Spiderman who always saves MJ from danger in the hopes of her saving him in love. They prey on each others weakness because MJ's weakness is being unable to defend herself without him and his weakness is a need to be loved by her so she preys on his weakness by loving him in order for him to continue to save her. I guess you can say that both a form of predatory love. - shit I don't know.

Anyways, so lets' go here when it comes to blaming the victim for being abused.

Let's say Kay Jewelers leaves all their doors unlocked at night and someone walks in and steals the jewels. Although Kay Jewelers left themselves in a vulnerable position that still doesn't give anyone the right to take advantage of the situation.

However, if someone does take advantage of that situation, Kay Jewelers can't say to the police "Oh No, I can't believe someone did that, how did this happen."

Then the police says, "Duh, Didn't you know how much your inventory was worth to worthless thieves?" At the end Kay Jewelers learned 2 valuable lessons on the worth of their inventory and not to be so trusting/vulnerable.

As a result, I believe we can take some responsibility in what happened to us in a positive way without blaming ourselves for what our abusers did to us because their actions were evil, spiteful and unjust.

Although I have my days of depression I still know the truth but it's a battle trying to let go of my faulty belief system and vulnerability. I am reminding myself constantly that I am not a doormat nor a puppet and that I am worth more than what others have said or how others have treated me but I won't ever heal if I am not true to myself either. When you open your eyes, you should choose to see everything and just not what you want to see. Just like the Katy Perry song, "I'm wide awake"

I see where you all are coming from, you all make good points. Therefore this thread should not cause a debate nor should it cause division like it is already doing.

yourself · #12 07-31-2012, 10:47 PM

No; you're a victim when you are on the receiving end of a criminal act. Conditioning is a psychological concept (see classical conditioning and opporant conditioning, the works of Skinner, Pavlov, etc). It has nothing to do with victimization. Predator/prey responses are a part of biology, housed in that white matter section of the brain that I mentioned earlier. You're confusing some very disparate areas of study in an attempt to justify some theory you have.

I suggest you read up on conditioning and the role choice plays in conditioning, especially when conditioning leads to reflexive learning. I also suggest you quit confusing victimization and conditioning.

And, I disagree: you cannot blame Kay Jeweler's for keeping its doors unlocked one night. They didn't become a victim because they kept their doors unlocked one night. They became victims because somebody burgaled them. Kay would never be responsible, their insurance carrier would pay off without question, and when they caught the burglar, his charges, guilt and sentence would not be mitigated because the door happened to be unlocked when he committed his thefts. That you see Kay as having responsibility in the decision to become a victim indicates to me that you really need to do some more research and some more self searching so you can dump responsibility for the crap you're really not responsible for. You're never going to get out of the cycle of violence until you place the responsibility for the abuse on the abuser. It's his/hers alone.

What you're doing is attempting to create an intellectual framework to the age old, "it's really not his fault, I made him beat the crap out of me" excuse. Quit. It won't give you peace, and it won't resolve anything.

bumblebee37 · #13 07-31-2012, 11:10 PM

Again I dunno...I suppose I became defensive at the insinuation that dv is somehow self victimizing. It crawled under my skin to read this:
"My Higher Power was that little voice that said, "Don't do it,"...God and the 12 steps have helped me to see the answers to the things I do...those answers are buried way deep down beneath the pain of a lifetime...the truth is I'm afraid."
From where I set daily I see very little of God having a hand in what the beaten and abused have endured but I do see the victims of trauma caused from the rage of another who over powered them physically. There was no time to go to a meeting or set quietly under a sycamore tree asking God which path to take because they were probably begging for the hits to stop.
I've watched this forum for a few years now, not really saying much until the past year. I have seen a lot of ladies come and go from here but the one thing they all share is the guilt that they somehow caused what happened to them. I just feel bad for anyone already beaten down mentally or physically to come across this thread and think 'Oh shit, it's my fault, I knew it was!".
But I won't debate it anymore. I'm going to save my energy for some 1 on 1 debates when my job calls me out.

Lunastarz · #14 08-01-2012, 01:23 AM

Yourself -

I admit that I am not an expert in Psychology, my degrees are in I.T. and Business Analysis but I have taken some psychology classes along the way so please do not insult my intelligence. I am well aware of what Conditioning is and it can be applicable in this situation because being “conditioned” is a way of training or setting up an environment that would cause a person to act a certain way. See simple definition below:

Con·di·tioned
adjective

1. existing under or subject to conditions.
2. characterized by a predictable or consistent pattern of behavior or thought as a result of having been subjected to certain circumstances or conditions.
3. Psychology . proceeding from or dependent on a conditioning of the individual; learned; acquired: conditioned behavior patterns. Compare unconditioned ( def. 2 ) .
-Dictionary.com

Like I said before, “No I am not saying that anyone purposely allowed themselves to be a victim, we only became victims from conditioning. I grew up in an abusive, controlling and manipulative environment and "I" allowed others to control me without noticing it.” Right there, I’m saying that I unintentionally sought out similar relationships because I was familiar with it. I “thought” it was normal.

Again like the example I provided regarding a predator and prey – I too, believe that a person can be both predator and prey and it doesn’t always have to have a negative connotation but I will give you one. A negative connotation of predator and prey would be an abusive man.

1. A man who abuses his wife has most likely experienced abuse as a child from his father figure towards him and/or his mother figure or

2. As a child that man may have experienced mom’s abuse towards dad

When that child grows up he may decide to utilize one of the two out-of-balance options in response to the childhood experiences above.

1. He may decide to take control like his dad did and keep his woman in check by abusing her, or

2. He may be too easy going and let his woman mistreat him in fear of becoming a replica of his father.

This is an example of the interchangeable prey and predator role. However, most predators were the prey or victim of someone else’s, control, manipulation or abuse and it doesn’t take a psychological genius or a professor in biology to know that.

As far as the Kay’s Jewelers example, you are completely missing the point. This isn’t about insurance and all that other shit. It’s about taking personal responsibility for your actions or inactions so that you can guard yourself in the future relationships. This is why I stated “I believe we can take some responsibility in what happened to us in a positive way without blaming ourselves for what our abusers did to us because their actions were evil, spiteful and unjust.” I never said that I believe he was right in hurting me because that coward ass bitch was dead wrong, but I allowed him to continue to do it. I KNOW It’s not my fault that he hit me, that’s his fault. My fault is that I didn’t see my own value enough to say fuck you and walk away, no matter the cost. My conditioning caused me to act like a chicken in a chicken coop although I had more than enough signs to tell me I was an eagle who was supposed to fly.

Those who hurt us are fully responsible for "their" actions and should be punished. Just because we may have been vulnerable doesn’t give them the right to exploit us.

Therefore, I feel there is nothing wrong with saying maybe I need to examine myself and fix the broken areas so the next time I won’t fall into this trap or cycle of abuse. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to self-improvement.

I might get depressed at times but I am no longer a victim, I’m not going to sing the “Woe as me” song because if I do I will become just like my abuser and start blaming everyone else for my problems while justifying my hurtful behavior towards myself and others.

yourself · #15 08-01-2012, 09:42 AM

wow, and again, I'm saying there's a big difference between conditioning and being a victim. Victim != conditioned.

Victim merely means you're on the receiving end of a crime.

you say:

Quote:

we only became victims from conditioning.

And I'm saying there's no conditioning involved with being a victim. You're overreaching to make such a statement.

When you take responsibility for the actions of others, you're doing yourself a huge disservice. Kay Jewelers? You think they'd be any less a victim if they kept the doors locked? Maybe they should have the security of Ft. Knox, and then they wouldn't be responsible for being a victim? Oh, wait, Ft. Knox can be a victim as well. Oh, I get it, maybe they should quit selling diamonds and precious metals so that they're not as big a target - they're responsible because they have diamonds and precious metals. If they sold fertilizer, they wouldn't be victims. Oh, wait, fertilizer businesses make money and get robbed as a result. Guess you can't have anything of value in order to strip yourself of any chance of being a victim in the future. After all, you're responsible for having something somebody else wanted - you're responsible under your theory of victimization.

That is the mindset of a person living as a victim - I caused the crime. Sorry, but you didn't. You didn't cause somebody to lash out and beat you any more than other victims. So, you need to quit taking responsibility for the actions of others and call it conditioning.

A number of years ago, a 21 year old, beautiful young woman died in a motorcycle accident. She was buried and a few days later 2 young men were arrested at her gravesite digging a hole. Their stated goal was to have sex with this beautiful albeit dead young woman. Now, tell me please, how was she conditioned to become a victim?

Lunastarz · #16 08-01-2012, 10:43 AM

It’s SO Obvious we are on two different pages. The point is not about Kay Jewelers or a dead girl I am talking about Domestic Violence

I only used Kay because their merchandise is very valuable, of course in the real world Kay would never leave their doors unlocked because they know their value. I used this example to show how their value is equivalent to the extreme value of the persons who became victims of domestic violence.

However, YES Kay can’t still be robbed if their doors were locked but the more they take precautionary measures to protect their merchandise, such as bars, cameras and etc. the less likely they will become a victim in the future. Same as, a DV survivor who learns how to protect her/himself in the future by recognizing certain patterns in themselves and in others that lead to DV in the first place, the less likely he/she will be exploited by another abuser. – The point is find your broken areas, fix them and Guard yourself so you can greatly reduce your chances of being a victim again.

Also, since I am just talking about Domestic Violence situations and not actually a casualty of other situation so your example is not applicable what I am saying. I will still say we were conditioned to be victims whether through mental, emotional, or physical abuse which led us into those abusive relationships. I am sorry if you fail to understand what I am saying but even here on this board that many of us has grown up in an abusive household as children which made us draw n to or assumed some type of normality in abusive relationships even if we really did not believe it was normal in the first place

Again, I am not here to debate because I do not believe the OP intended to create this thread for confusion. I understand everyone’s point but don’t dare shoot down my point or anyone else’s point just because you simply don't understand or don’t agree.

bumblebee37 · #17 08-01-2012, 01:37 PM

I see this thread has done what was intended and has a controversy going. It spreads negativity, it doesn't open the board to conversation or thinking. I vote we don't post on it anymore and let it die into the archives of history, we all have enough bs in our life's. If the OP wants to believe what he/she wrote then let'em go with it, it may very well make their life easier to bare but it is only (1) opinion.
But let me say as a 12 stepper, maybe even a failed one, that it is not fair to use this logic with survivors of domestic violence. Our disease as alcoholics is a self inflicted disease and it is/was our choice to pick up that drink. The ladies/men/children that come to this forum didn't choose to be abused whether they were conditioned from birth or married a maniac. To say hand it over to God, set and reflect where you may have gone wrong might just get someone killed thinking the hand of God is going to reach out to swoop them out of the situation.
If you (the OP) want to use Big Book mentality, reasoning, and ways lets take it over to the Drug/Alcohol Forums where there are many such as myself that will debate it all day long but it isn't right to inflict our ways, our beliefs on a forum where someone might be fighting to get out.
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Granzort · #18 08-01-2012, 08:45 PM

Very sensitive topic. I must say that I believe that situations and experiences make you into victim and that is very little down to your actual choice.

yourself · #19 08-01-2012, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumblebee37

I see this thread has done what was intended and has a controversy going. It spreads negativity, it doesn't open the board to conversation or thinking. I vote we don't post on it anymore and let it die into the archives of history, we all have enough bs in our life's. If the OP wants to believe what he/she wrote then let'em go with it, it may very well make their life easier to bare but it is only (1) opinion.
But let me say as a 12 stepper, maybe even a failed one, that it is not fair to use this logic with survivors of domestic violence. Our disease as alcoholics is a self inflicted disease and it is/was our choice to pick up that drink. The ladies/men/children that come to this forum didn't choose to be abused whether they were conditioned from birth or married a maniac. To say hand it over to God, set and reflect where you may have gone wrong might just get someone killed thinking the hand of God is going to reach out to swoop them out of the situation.
If you (the OP) want to use Big Book mentality, reasoning, and ways lets take it over to the Drug/Alcohol Forums where there are many such as myself that will debate it all day long but it isn't right to inflict our ways, our beliefs on a forum where someone might be fighting to get out.
bb

Here here. I think the above bears emphasizing.

egbdf65 · #20 08-02-2012, 06:40 AM

Let me be a little more clear her, as I see things more deeply each day now.

The reason I was a "predator" was I was looking to sabotage myself. All I ever knew was being in pain, and I would do these things to be back in that pain. If anything will sabotage me it's this type of relations.

egbdf65 · #21 08-02-2012, 06:43 AM

I just read a bit of bumblebee's last post. The only thing I can say is that AA is probably the last place left on earth where we don't allow ourselves to be victims.

Blame of others or ourselves also has no place in recovery - it's about the Truth, and these are some difficult chunks of truth to swallow about ourselves, yes. But do we want to really change?

If I didn't have the Big Book, I would never have been able to see how or why I set the ball rolling. Now that I see it, I'm changing the underlying causes and conditions.

I just gave you some valuable information here that took me 2 years of hard work to find. It may be your truth, it may not. Either way, keep your mind open to it.

Self-sabotage so we can never really move forward.

It works - it really does.

yourself · #22 08-02-2012, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egbdf65

I just read a bit of bumblebee's last post. The only thing I can say is that AA is probably the last place left on earth where we don't allow ourselves to be victims.

Blame of others or ourselves also has no place in recovery - it's about the Truth, and these are some difficult chunks of truth to swallow about ourselves, yes. But do we want to really change?

If I didn't have the Big Book, I would never have been able to see how or why I set the ball rolling. Now that I see it, I'm changing the underlying causes and conditions.

I just gave you some valuable information here that took me 2 years of hard work to find. It may be your truth, it may not. Either way, keep your mind open to it.

Self-sabotage so we can never really move forward.

It works - it really does.

self sabotage is not predation

my mom's been in AA for more than 25 years. It's not her fault; it's the disease's fault. If you think that you can't be in AA and still not take responsibility for your own actions, you need to meet my mom. She's really great at blaming everybody and everything except herself. I believe she's completely incapable of taking personal responsibility for her actions and is much too much into playing the martyr, woe is me, I have a disease thing. Glad you've learned something different in 2 years, but she's been at it for more than 25, so please. AA and the Big Book can let you wallow in being a victim just as righteously as anything else invoking God and God's will.

And, boy, I've run into the same attitude time and again in my practice. Fortunately, one of the judges I deal with regularly is an AA member who's into personal responsibility.

I'm in agreement with BB - AA and the AA construct are not appropriate for victims of DV, and can cause a lot more harm than good.

The Hug Thief · #23 08-02-2012, 08:34 AM

The first time my father beat me badly, I was ten. Oh yeah, there had been beatings before that, but my mother was around and he couldn't leave marks. That was the first time it drew blood. The reason he beat me was because I got home 10 minutes late from visiting a friend. So me, at ten years old, asked to be beaten because I was provoking him by being 10 minutes late and I chose to be born to someone who got his rocks off from beating the shit out of his girlfriends and children? When I was seventeen, and he battered down my bedroom door and slammed my head into the wall because he was drunk and I'd taken my brother and sister into my room so he couldn't touch them, I was provoking him, was I? It was still all my fault? I chose to be a victim of an assault from someone I chose to be born to and chose not to run away from? Is that right? I made those choices? NO. I did not choose to be the child of a vicious drunk. If I could have chosen another fucking father, you can bet your ass I would have.

At the age of ten, I had no defenses. I couldn't lock a door or lock a cabinet or do anything to protect myself. Yes, I could have run, but there are bigger things on the streets for a little girl than the father that says he loves her, and he was right about one thing. The girls that ran, in those days, were the ones that would be on the streets a couple months later, drug addicted and/or prostituting themselves for some predatory shit who was worse than the one at home. And where was God in all of this? Did God intervene to stop me from being abused? No, it was a young female cop who was the first on the scene when I called and who called the ambulance. God did not enter into it, and I don't feel like giving those years over to God or anyone else, thank you. My experiences are my own, and my higher power is love, not guilt and divisiveness. I have learned that anyone who wishes to dictate my higher power to me is wrong in trying to do that. My relationship with it is not through a church leader, a counselor or a preacher, it is uniquely mine and nobody else can understand it completely.

The people that have helped me be happier have all repeated one phrase to me. It was not your fault. I believe it, it wasn't my fault at all. So you'll forgive me, I assume, if I don't believe you saying that it was my fault, even in part. As someone very special once told me, I may have had shit happen to me but I am clean.

bumblebee37 · #24 08-02-2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egbdf65

I just read a bit of bumblebee's last post. The only thing I can say is that AA is probably the last place left on earth where we don't allow ourselves to be victims.
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Self-sabotage so we can never really move forward.
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I am proud for you that AA has helped you find yourself, you are working on fixing the problems in your life, and that you feel you are fixing being the 'victim' in whatever happened to you BUT I also believe you need to call your sponsor so they can walk you threw the rules and steps off AA, that it is a program only you can work within yourself and with people who understand. Most of the people here haven't yet got the concept they are powerless over their addiction (I suppose you mean domestic violence)so how can you jump steps and tell them to do the things you are? 2 years is great but you need more time and understanding if you want to reach out to fix someone else.
bb

The Hug Thief · #25 08-03-2012, 06:15 AM

The addiction debate doesn't even matter for those of us who were abused by parents. We couldn't just get away. That's my truth, so you take your big bad book away from me, please. You obviously have no concept of the lives of those of us who were born to domestic violence. We constantly ask ourselves if we deserved it. We always walk on eggshells. And yet, we are nothing but victims of circumstance, plain and simple. Just because a sorry excuse for a man fucked my mother and produced me, it doesn't mean I deserve a damn thing he did to me. The only things I fixed were my ability to love myself and the blame I placed at my door. It's squarely where it belongs now - with him. Not with my mom, not with me, not with his parents, not with anyone but him.

Fear is not an evil and corroding thread. It's a natural response to negative actions. That logic is all stick. I believe it's okay to feel fear, anger, and everything else. I don't allow myself to be a victim, but I believe in the carrot. Yeah, I get scared. Who doesn't? But I also eat amazingly delicious food. I spend time with my fiance. I prefer to kill it with joy than be scared about fear. It works much better than any negativity ever has. If you want to believe you're a predator, fine, but coming in here and forcing that on others is insensitive.