Caseys Law is unconstitutional

[todds18p]

I'm glad that these programs helped the people you know. However I do not believe that people should be forced to make a decision to be sober. If someone commits a crime and gets jail time, then yes I feel that rehab should be offered as an option at that point. However, I'm in a situation where my mom has pulled the Casey Law card. I however am not a drug addict. I have dabbled in drugs, like most people do as they progress in age. I feel that everything, besides gay intercourse is worth giving a chance. I was forced to complete a detox program at the Drougie house and I wasn't detoxing. Everyone else was sick while I was fine and I had to sit through 6-7 meetings a day, sometimes rereading the same 12 traditions and steps. This was the most pain staking experience of my life. I strongly believe that not using drugs is as simple as saying I don't want to use drugs. It doesn't take 7 months of counseling and hearing peoples horror stories to fix this problem. The main reason I stopped using at this point was to not have to go through the horror of having to listen to other people and shake peoples hands. It's almost like a brainwashing conformity. It makes me sick that people are so proud that people can do something so easy, stop using drugs. It's not an accomplishment. It's like giving an award for doing something in life that you have to do to survive. It sounds like you enabled your son by letting him steal from you. I've never stolen in my life to get a drug. When people steal I feel that should be dealt with in such a way. I'm just very upset that this law exists and that people such as myself, who are not drug dependent but are experimental by nature can be forced to undergo such brain wash. I also strongly do no agree with the step saying you must except a higher being such as God in your life. God is a simple explanation for things that people can't quite explain or take the time to explain. You rarely hear of people saying God is responsible for things that are bad. Such as the dude who murdered all those people in Colorado. If the dude saved peoples lives people would have said it was God. However, because he killed people what was Gods plan then. I'm sure people would come up with a plan as it changed peoples lives and such who survived. People can make up bs about anything its all about getting enough people to follow it. Caseys law is unconstitutional. I intend to get this law taken out of the system..

[mg113]

todds18p, you are certainly entitled to your opinion... there are a few statements you made that I need clear up... first is this

It sounds like you enabled your son by letting him steal from you.... ummm what made you think that?? My son is 24 yrs old, was NOT LIVING AT HOME, and the occasions he did steal from me ( when he was in highschool) he was prosecuted and as soon as he turned 18, he was not allowed to live in my home.. so I dont know what would make you say that?? he was not in jail for stealing from me, as a matter of fact when he did his last robbery I WAS THE ONE WHO CONVINCED HIM TO TURN HIMSELF IN.. so yes he stole from me many years ago when his addiction started but how that translates to me lettting him steal I am not sure

12 step program is not for everyone, and not all progams are faith based, transitions ( droege house) is a faith based program. Your higher power can be the chair you are sitting on, its not required to be "god". Not all programs are 12 step programs.

If your mom played the caseys law card then 2 doctors and a judge had to have agreed that you would benefit from it. I am in no way judging whether or not you needed rehab I have no way of knowing I am just saying its not as simple as a parent deciding to do it and then its so ordered. At least for me it was NOT CHEAP TO GET 2 DOCTORS TO GO TO EVALUATE HIM AT KENTON COUNTY DETENTION CENTER...

And yes I am proud, it wasent so easy for my son to quit, I am glad it was that easy for you. Its just how life is, things I may find easy you may find difficult and vice versa.

As far as you not being sick in droegge house, there are many people who are sent there to detox that simply smoke weed and they are still sent there and they are not getting sick like opiate users. Transitions makes every person go to droegge BEFORE they send you to a regular treatment center, some need to be there and some dont but its their policy. Droegge is not the only option for treatment but it is one of the cheaper (20 bucks for the week) options.

As far as this law being taken off the books PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU MAKE THAT HAPPEN

As a matter of fact charlotte ( caseys mom) has had similar laws enacted in other states.

[Sheryl P.]

Originally Posted by mg113

todds18p, you are certainly entitled to your opinion... there are a few statements you made that I need clear up... first is this

It sounds like you enabled your son by letting him steal from you.... ummm what made you think that?? My son is 24 yrs old, was NOT LIVING AT HOME, and the occasions he did steal from me ( when he was in highschool) he was prosecuted and as soon as he turned 18, he was not allowed to live in my home.. so I dont know what would make you say that?? he was not in jail for stealing from me, as a matter of fact when he did his last robbery I WAS THE ONE WHO CONVINCED HIM TO TURN HIMSELF IN.. so yes he stole from me many years ago when his addiction started but how that translates to me lettting him steal I am not sure

12 step program is not for everyone, and not all progams are faith based, transitions ( droege house) is a faith based program. Your higher power can be the chair you are sitting on, its not required to be "god". Not all programs are 12 step programs.

If your mom played the caseys law card then 2 doctors and a judge had to have agreed that you would benefit from it. I am in no way judging whether or not you needed rehab I have no way of knowing I am just saying its not as simple as a parent deciding to do it and then its so ordered. At least for me it was NOT CHEAP TO GET 2 DOCTORS TO GO TO EVALUATE HIM AT KENTON COUNTY DETENTION CENTER...

And yes I am proud, it wasent so easy for my son to quit, I am glad it was that easy for you. Its just how life is, things I may find easy you may find difficult and vice versa.

As far as you not being sick in droegge house, there are many people who are sent there to detox that simply smoke weed and they are still sent there and they are not getting sick like opiate users. Transitions makes every person go to droegge BEFORE they send you to a regular treatment center, some need to be there and some dont but its their policy. Droegge is not the only option for treatment but it is one of the cheaper (20 bucks for the week) options.

As far as this law being taken off the books PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU MAKE THAT HAPPEN

As a matter of fact charlotte ( caseys mom) has had similar laws enacted in other states.

Given the option of treatment or prison,how many would choose prison?
I hope she is sucessful in getting this law in every state!
I have a dead friend that might be alive today and the man I love could sure have used treatment when he was incarcerated at 18,not prison (he might have had a much different life).

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by Sheryl P.

Given the option of treatment or prison,how many would choose prison?
I hope she is sucessful in getting this law in every state!
I have a dead friend that might be alive today and the man I love could sure have used treatment when he was incarcerated at 18,not prison (he might have had a much different life).

Hi Sheryl P.--

After discussing the options with Todd as a friend I've come to the conclusion that he prefers jail over rehab.

I felt compelled to join after seeing Todd's last post because there's several issues I needed to address, specifically with regards to the constitutionality of Casey's Law. I ran the law through Westlaw and Lexis and found no such (successful or otherwise) case challenging the constitutionality of this law, either in state or federal court. And it's because, rightly, the designers made the appropriate safeguards to avoid trampling on someone else's constitutional rights. I'll try to address a few of the more common issues raised:

Due Process under the 14th Amendment - won't work as an argument here, primarily given the length that most petitioners must go through to get the court on their side. In addition to the petitioner themselves (in this case Todd's mother), they must also convince a judge and at least two professionals, one of which must be a doctor, that you're a danger to yourself or to society at large. Given the amount of $ and time involved, it's reasonable to infer that the mother isn't going to go through these hoops unless she (and at least three other people) are convinced there's a big ole problem.

Cruel & Unusual Punishment under the 8th Amendment - again, won't fly. The guy committed to rehab can tell me all he wants that he doesn't have a drug problem. And I might even believe him. But a judge won't, because of events that have transpired in the past couple months (which I'm not sure I'm at full liberty to discuss here; I'm going to respect Todd's privacy). But needless to say that sobriety and freedom from drugs is typically measured in years, not in months.

Not a danger to self or others - what happened last month is prima facie evidence of a big ole drug problem. Especially since the time between that event and the beginning of the Casey's Law petition was only a couple days later.

I always hear that the person actually addicted to something is the last person in the world to realize that. I'm not in Todd's head so I can't say but I wonder if this indeed the case?

[mg113]

Caseys law was not written to be an option for an addict when they commit a crime that sends them to jail. I happened to take a shot at it while my son was in jail, for a crime that was clearly drug related and I did have to jump thru hoops to get the doctor and therapist in the jail to evaluate him. Even Charlotte ( caseys mom) didnt think they would let him out of jail till he served his sentence... but for some reason the judge did allow him to go to rehab..and gave him probation.
For that I will be forever grateful... I believe it saved his life!!

thanks hensleya1 for the info............

[todds18p]

Thanks for clearing all that up. I'm glad that this program helped your son. I was in a bad mood yesterday when I wrote this. I apologize, I made quite a few errors, I should have never said you enabled your son to steal. These types of problems should stay out of the court system though. If my mom wanted me to stop using drugs, then she should deal with in in a other way then getting the authority involved. I also take back what I said about kicking a habit not being commendable. I'm sure it is, however I've never had a problem doing it myself so I have hard time relating to those who do. I feel there's a big difference between drug dependence and drug use. I feel that drug use in moderation is fine. Just as drinking in moderation is fine. If it wasn't then Alcohol would not be legal. Smoking cigarettes in moderation, however I've never met someone who smokes who isn't addicted. I feel that my problem has nothing to do with drugs at this time, I just had made one mistake and I did 7 days and now I will never make that mistake again. I don't feel I should be sentenced to 7 months of treatment for something I can do on my own.

[mg113]

Todd I can understand you being angry, and I appreciate your apology.......that speaks volumes about your charactor. Your very right that not ALL PEOPLE who use or experiment with drugs need rehab, and I am sorry for your situation, I really hope it all works out for you.

[JuliannRN]

As far as making a choice to do drugs, you are correct about that Todd, everyone makes that choice however not everyone makes the choice to become an addict. I know for a fact that Caseys law, although it is called something different here in ohio, saved the life of my friends daughter. Had it not been for that law MANDATING that she seek treatment, she would be dead or in prison for a good long time...
This statement in your posts speaks VOLUMES " I however am not a drug addict. I have dabbled in drugs, like most people do as they progress in age." Denial is number one and second of all, most people DO NOT dabble in drugs.

[makebelieve215]

WOW

mg113 you are a SAINT, because my response to this post would not have been nearly as courteous and understanding as yours have been. I am very happy for you and your family and I'm glad that you were so resourceful and persistent in helping your son change his life.

Todd, I realize you did apologize for some of the statements you made but I really just want to make sure you understand why they are so wrong.

Let me first say that I WISH we had a law like this in Pennsylvania. Every state should (and probably will sometime in the near future) support the use of proper treatment for individuals suffering from substance abuse, because more people are starting to realize that substance abuse is not just "dabbling", having a good time with your friends, nor is it an excuse for stealing; it's a chronic mental disorder. Unfortunately Todd, many people like you confuse the idea of drug dependence and drug addiction. Recent changes to the DSM will hopefully clarify this issue by making it clear that drug dependence can be anything from suffering a really bad hangover to experiencing tolerance and withdrawal symptoms when taking a prescribed medication. For example, when you have a hangover it is actually a form of withdrawal, or if someone who was severely injured in a car accident is prescribed oxycodone, they may begin to notice that they are building a tolerance for it. This is dependence. Addiction, however, is a compulsive drug-seeking behavior. It is a chronic disease, and Juliann is absolutely right; nobody chooses to become an addict.

Which leads me to my urge to address and correct this statement that you made:

"I feel there's a big difference between drug dependence and drug use. I feel that drug use in moderation is fine. Just as drinking in moderation is fine. If it wasn't then Alcohol would not be legal."

Drug use and drinking may be fine in moderation for YOU. In fact, since you are "experimental by nature", you should consider yourself lucky to be able to experiment and not suffer the consequences of feeling the urge to use, and use, and use, just to feel normal everyday. Also, just because alcohol is legal does not mean it is not dangerous. This is one of the most common excuses used by alcoholics. They say "it's legal, so what's wrong with it?", when in fact, alcohol is actually one of the most dangerous substances to abuse. Detox centers and rehabs can rarely be turned down by an insurance company to grant someone admittance who is suffering from alcohol withdrawal because they are at risk for suffering from severe delusions, hallucinations, and seizures, causing alcohol to be at the top of the list of having the most dangerous and fatal withdrawal symptoms.

For the sake of accepting that you are simply ignorant as to how severe drug addiction actually is and how the brain of an addict functions, I will spare you with what I REALLY want to say about this next statement.

"I strongly believe that not using drugs is as simple as saying I don't want to use drugs. It doesn't take 7 months of counseling and hearing peoples horror stories to fix this problem...It makes me sick that people are so proud that people can do something so easy, stop using drugs. It's not an accomplishment. It's like giving an award for doing something in life that you have to do to survive."

Like I said, I understand that many people are not well educated on the subject of addiction, however, please try to do your research before posting such an offensive statement. Hopefully you learned in the treatment center that it is NOT that easy just to say no. It IS an accomplishment for individuals that have to suffer from this mental illness because they are forced to deal with it every waking moment of their lives. This also involves living with the guilt that they feel after making horrible decisions caused by their need to use.

Lastly, I have to agree with Juliann on this last statement.

"I have dabbled in drugs, like most people do as they progress in age."

This is a common misconception that "everybody" goes through an experimental phase where they "dabble" with drugs. At a certain age, I know it does seem like this is happening all around you, and unfortunately, I think that's why it is so hard for addicts in high school and college to accept that they cannot have a drink, they cannot smoke pot, and they cannot do all of these things that the "experimenters" do, because it could throw them into a dark hole that will take immense strength to dig themselves out of. Whereas you do not have to worry about this, because you can wake up the next day, shake it off, and move on with your life. Please consider those who cannot do this and do not have the ability to simply "stop using". They cannot shake it off as easily as you can because it is in their genes, their minds, and their behaviors to act upon their drug-seeking tendencies.

You will never get this law taken out of the system because it is progressing as we speak. Our government is becoming more aware of the need to address drug & alcohol issues on a nationwide level and any opposition to this will be fought with a hard battle and scientific proof that mental disorders, such as substance abuse, play a large role in our criminal justice system and need to be taken care of more efficiently..or else that revolving door will just keep revolving.

[mg113]

Makebelieve I appreciate the saint thing BUT I AM NO WHERE NEAR BEING A SAINT, I just refuse to give my anger to someone who is clueless...........and argue with someeone I dont even know lol so I try to kill them with kindness

I will say that I appreciate your input, you KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT, and you articulated it better then I ever could have!!