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  #1  
Old 12-07-2016, 05:57 PM
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Default Christie vetos no solitary under age 21 law in New Jersey

Here's a link to an article from NorthJersey.com, part of USA Today's network.

Christie vetoed the law that would have restricted solitary confinement for prisoners under age 21 in New Jersey prisons, calling it a “partisan and juvenile” attempt by Democratic lawmakers to drum up headlines.

http://www.northjersey.com/story/new...ment/95004976/
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:04 PM
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I saw that in my Facebook feed Chris Christie is xx xxx..I try to keep my political views from being so apparent. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't I do hope that there is an avenue for overriding his veto.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:22 PM
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That's a shame. This would have at least been a step in the right direction.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:19 PM
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Contrary to what some believe, this sort of legislation is an attempt to micromanage corrections through legislation. That deprives the people who are purportedly the experts in security operations from being able to do their job properly. The simple reality is that some persons, regardless of age, MUST be kept separate from the general population in order to ensure the safety and security of both staff AND other offenders.

Put another way...if a PTO member has a spouse, child or friend that is housed on a facility with a person certified as an adult and who has displayed assaultive tendencies and who in turn causes harm to the spouse, child or friend, I can only imagine the hue and cry about why the agency had not taken steps to isolate the juvenile from the general population.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CenTexLyn View Post
Contrary to what some believe, this sort of legislation is an attempt to micromanage corrections through legislation. That deprives the people who are purportedly the experts in security operations from being able to do their job properly. The simple reality is that some persons, regardless of age, MUST be kept separate from the general population in order to ensure the safety and security of both staff AND other offenders.

Put another way...if a PTO member has a spouse, child or friend that is housed on a facility with a person certified as an adult and who has displayed assaultive tendencies and who in turn causes harm to the spouse, child or friend, I can only imagine the hue and cry about why the agency had not taken steps to isolate the juvenile from the general population.
There has to be a better way than solitary. Animals are treated better than the conditions in solitary. Solitary confinement is cruel. Children should not be put in a room for days weeks months alone. The trauma it causes is terrible. My boyfriend has told me countless experiences he had as a child in prison being sent to solitary. It's horrific. He was sent to solitary for arguing or talking back. It seems like an abuse of the punishment.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:58 AM
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Did you read what I wrote for the example of persons who need to be removed from a general population? There are some who simply MUST be kept from regular abilities to intermingle with staff AND offenders in order to keep those other persons safe.

Or perhaps you would rather your boyfriend be harmed by one of those under-21's who just doesn't give a damn about life or who or what he does to other people but who cannot be isolated because we might harm his delicate fee-fees.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:53 AM
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Did you read what I wrote for the example of persons who need to be removed from a general population? There are some who simply MUST be kept from regular abilities to intermingle with staff AND offenders in order to keep those other persons safe.

Or perhaps you would rather your boyfriend be harmed by one of those under-21's who just doesn't give a damn about life or who or what he does to other people but who cannot be isolated because we might harm his delicate fee-fees.
Yes I did read what you wrote and I still feel like solitary is harsh and cruel. I feel that practice of using it for punishment is overly used. There has to be a better way to treat mentally ill children who are in prison. The system is broken I don't have the answers or even know where to begin on how it could be fixed. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Putting a child does a lot more harm than just hurting their feelings.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:51 AM
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Yes I did read what you wrote and I still feel like solitary is harsh and cruel. I feel that practice of using it for punishment is overly used. There has to be a better way to treat mentally ill children who are in prison. The system is broken I don't have the answers or even know where to begin on how it could be fixed. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Putting a child does a lot more harm than just hurting their feelings.
And without a 'better way,' segregation remains the ONLY way to deal with SOME offenders for the sake of the safety of other offenders (you know, like your boyfriend) and staff (who some here don't give a damn about).
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:04 PM
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Personally, I'd much rather have a law in place that mandates a certain level of education and training for wardens on down to new corrections officers.

I'd outlaw private prisons except in unusual circumstances - a private prison with max to min units for trans and gender conflicted individuals, or a medium prison solely for natives of one of a handful of tribes that caters to the individual needs of members of those tribes - stuff like that. Such prisons would be nonprofits with the onus of the prison's creation and maintenance placed on some outside community dedicated to people in that sort of field - so a tribe or conglomeration of tribes could open up a prison for their people(s) instead of some generic, profit driven prison.

I do think that young offenders, specifically those under 30, should be housed together, and that some offenders will push boundaries either deliberately or because they can't help themselves. Solitary is sometimes necessary, no matter how young. It really sucks. They do need to have their cases reviewed more regularly than at present in most prisons, and they should have distinct goals to meet to get out of solitary when it comes to prisoners for whom long term solitary confinement is warranted.

But yeah, CenTex is right - sometimes solitary, including long term solitary, is warranted for people at any age. Want to reduce solitary? increase the mental health beds in our communities so that some of these people are treated for their psychological difficulties rather than imprisoned. But, even mental hospitals use isolation and 4 point restraints on people, no matter the age.

I guess the other question to ask is whether you want to increase the use of involuntary medication on inmates, especially those under 25. Medication, of course, is then seen as the invisible restraint system that may be more humane according to those of us on the outside looking in, but is eschewed by those in the psych rights communities. Especially when court ordered and against the will of the individual.
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Old 12-09-2016, 03:23 PM
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And without a 'better way,' segregation remains the ONLY way to deal with SOME offenders for the sake of the safety of other offenders (you know, like your boyfriend) and staff (who some here don't give a damn about).
The problem is the "some" who should be put into solitary because there is no other option are not the only ones who are thrown into solitary. especially when it comes to children in prison. There are many instances where the use of solitary is abused as these children suffer long term effects because of it. My bf still suffers from trauma from being put into solitary as a child.
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  #11  
Old 12-09-2016, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Iimas View Post
The problem is the "some" who should be put into solitary because there is no other option are not the only ones who are thrown into solitary. especially when it comes to children in prison. There are many instances where the use of solitary is abused as these children suffer long term effects because of it. My bf still suffers from trauma from being put into solitary as a child.
What happened in the past is not reason to legislatively micromanage and hamstring an agency. I cannot help but to notice you continue to avoid the response you would have if one of those juveniles who doesn't give a damn and should be isolated were to harm your boyfriend...apparently you would be perfectly fine with that because heaven forbid we place an assaultive individual in a single-cell environment for the sake of protecting others from harm.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CenTexLyn View Post
What happened in the past is not reason to legislatively micromanage and hamstring an agency. I cannot help but to notice you continue to avoid the response you would have if one of those juveniles who doesn't give a damn and should be isolated were to harm your boyfriend...apparently you would be perfectly fine with that because heaven forbid we place an assaultive individual in a single-cell environment for the sake of protecting others from harm.
Honestly I'm not worried about an inmate harming my boyfriend. He can take care of himself. I still feel solitary is overused on children. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I can't help but wonder why these juveniles don't give a damn. Maybe that should be addressed but again I'm not worried about my man. He's good he can take care of himself
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:18 AM
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Long-term solitary confinement is torture. Human beings are social creatures. Everyone, even dangerous prisoners, should have the opportunity to regularly communicate with another person on a face-to-face basis.

It is obscene that people like Tommy Silverstein have spent decades in solitary confinement without being able to communicate with other prisoners and without being able to go outside. Make no mistake, there are alternatives to the type of "no human contact" treatment that Silverstein and other American prisoners are currently enduring. Outdoor prison cells can be set up in a prison yard. These individual cells can be set up in such a way that prisoners in neighboring cells can communicate with one another without being able to physically touch one another.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:21 PM
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... It is obscene that people like Tommy Silverstein ...
Wow. I don't think I'd have chosen someone who was convicted of murder, sent to prison and was then convicted of four more separate murders while imprisoned, as an example of why solitary is bad. But that's just me.

Maybe a better example of why solitary is unreasonable, would be Steven Jay Russell? He's been in Ad Seg for 20 years with no end in sight. He never committed a violent offense. He's the one who needs championing.

You put your LO in a cell with Tommy. I'll put mine in with Steven.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:39 PM
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Wow. I don't think I'd have chosen someone who was convicted of murder, sent to prison and was then convicted of four more separate murders while imprisoned, as an example of why solitary is bad. But that's just me.

Maybe a better example of why solitary is unreasonable, would be Steven Jay Russell? He's been in Ad Seg for 20 years with no end in sight. He never committed a violent offense. He's the one who needs championing.

You put your LO in a cell with Tommy. I'll put mine in with Steven.

Or perhaps Kalief Browder...
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:40 PM
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Wow. I don't think I'd have chosen someone who was convicted of murder, sent to prison and was then convicted of four more separate murders while imprisoned, as an example of why solitary is bad. But that's just me.

...

You put your LO in a cell with Tommy. I'll put mine in with Steven.
I didn't nominate Tommy Silverstein for sainthood; nor am I suggesting that Tommy Silverstein should be placed in a cell with anyone else. What I am suggesting, however, is that Tommy Silverstein is a human being and that even dangerous human beings have the right to be treated in a manner that is not cruel. Even dangerous prisoners should not be tortured.

Incidentally, you were not exactly accurate with respect to Tommy Silverstein's criminal history. He went to federal prison as a very young man for robbery and not murder. While Silverstein was convicted of 4 counts of murder after he was imprisoned, one of those murder convictions was overturned on appeal.

One other thing ... I am new to PTO. Because I have not yet made 25 posts on this website, I am unable to include URLs in any of my posts. That is why I had to delete that part of what you wrote that contained a URL. I was not ignoring the example that you provided.

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Old 04-19-2017, 05:05 PM
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"While Silverstein was convicted of 4 counts of murder after he was imprisoned, one of those murder convictions was overturned on appeal."

But one of the murders that still stands was of a CO and the DoJ has a very long memory.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:54 PM
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Maybe a better example of why solitary is unreasonable, would be Steven Jay Russell? He's been in Ad Seg for 20 years with no end in sight. He never committed a violent offense. He's the one who needs championing.

You put your LO in a cell with Tommy. I'll put mine in with Steven.
The history with Russell pretty much justifies removal from population. But he is not without contact...he qualifies for group recreation, albeit just barely considering how few non-death row offenders are housed in 12Bldg at Polunsky. The worst of the incidents, IMO, involved the fraudulent claim of AIDS to get a medically recommended release in addition to the other crimes related to the escapes from custody.

I place that one at the top because cases like Russell harm those with legitimate claims to a potential release to Medically Recommended Intensive Supervision.

I've dealt with one of the attorneys who represented him in the subsequent felony offenses and, suffice it to say, there is a LOT that never really made it to the web-based accounts and that is not included in the movie. You will also find him in the TDCJ locator under Steven L Russell...
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:57 PM
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"While Silverstein was convicted of 4 counts of murder after he was imprisoned, one of those murder convictions was overturned on appeal."

But one of the murders that still stands was of a CO and the DoJ has a very long memory.
Not to mention that whole 'heading up a violent white supremacist group' thing...prison officials tend to be quite wary of such persons.
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jelly_Belly View Post
I didn't nominate Tommy Silverstein for sainthood; nor am I suggesting that Tommy Silverstein should be placed in a cell with anyone else. What I am suggesting, however, is that Tommy Silverstein is a human being and that even dangerous human beings have the right to be treated in a manner that is not cruel. Even dangerous prisoners should not be tortured.

Incidentally, you were not exactly accurate with respect to Tommy Silverstein's criminal history. He went to federal prison as a very young man for robbery and not murder. While Silverstein was convicted of 4 counts of murder after he was imprisoned, one of those murder convictions was overturned on appeal.

One other thing ... I am new to PTO. Because I have not yet made 25 posts on this website, I am unable to include URLs in any of my posts. That is why I had to delete that part of what you wrote that contained a URL. I was not ignoring the example that you provided.
I understand and totally agree that long term ad seg is torture. But in cases like Silverstein's, what else is there to do? He proved that he cannot "play nice."

Ok, one conviction was overturned. Three were not.

No biggie about the url! Welcome to PTO, where we can disagree and still be friendly!
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:34 AM
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No biggie about the url! Welcome to PTO, where we can disagree and still be friendly!
Thanks for the warm welcome.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:17 AM
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No biggie about the url! Welcome to PTO, where we can disagree and still be friendly!
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Thanks for the warm welcome.
This is one of the many amazing benefits of being a part of PTO.

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