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  #76  
Old 01-11-2014, 07:36 PM
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There isn't a notary on site... But if you call MC she'll give you list of approved notaries that can enter, and you can call around and see which one works for u as far as price/service

Do you talk to his mom/dad? If so that'd probably be faster .. Fill out ppwrk as if they're requesting it
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:41 PM
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Also read a lil above your post about the new ID requirement for inmates... Does ur honey have a valid ID? If not, this may create potential issue. there are talks about this specific requirement but no resolution yet. If u call the MC ask her what you need so you don't have any surprises ... Good luck
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxxy_Roxxie View Post
Also read a lil above your post about the new ID requirement for inmates... Does ur honey have a valid ID? If not, this may create potential issue. there are talks about this specific requirement but no resolution yet. If u call the MC ask her what you need so you don't have any surprises ... Good luck
Thanks for the info on the notary. No, I don't have contact with his parents but I did think about asking one of his sibling as I can see they can do it, too.

And yeah, I've been reading the bits about the ID. Crazy. I hope there's a resolution soon because his only ID would be issued by the facility. :/

Thanks again!
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:37 PM
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Thanks for the info on the notary. No, I don't have contact with his parents but I did think about asking one of his sibling as I can see they can do it, too.

And yeah, I've been reading the bits about the ID. Crazy. I hope there's a resolution soon because his only ID would be issued by the facility. :/

Thanks again!
Actually, by law each prison must have notaries on site and available to inmates. They must pay a fee, and if they can prove they cannot pay, they must be provided alternative. I would assume the MC is a notary public.

State of California Code of Corrections – Chapter 1, Article 18, Sections 14010.22 and 14010.22.1 (http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Regulations/A...2013%20DOM.PDF)

14010.22 Notarization of Legal Documents

Each Warden shall identify and designate a Notary Public Coordinator, have an adequate number of commissioned notaries public to accommodate inmate requests, and designate a secured storage area for supplemental identification cards. Upon request from an employee, an inmate, or an inmate's attorney, notary service shall be provided upon payment of established notary fees.

Documents requiring notarization may be notarized only upon the inmate‘s payment of the established notary fee. Inmates who request notarization of court documents, but who cannot pay the established fee, shall be advised that the courts permit an alternative to notarization.

Under CCP 2015.5 and Title 28, U.S. Code (USC) 1746 (cited as 28 USC 1746), documents can be filed with a declaration under penalty of perjury.

Notary services shall be provided as expeditiously as possible, consistent with security and other operational needs.
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:38 PM
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This right here is where I think the ID thing can be resolved:

14010.22.1 Identification of Persons
An employee acting as a notary may only acknowledge an instrument in accordance with the current Notary Public Handbook published by the Secretary of State.

Satisfactory evidence for incarcerated inmates shall be a supplemental inmate identification card as described below.
Supplemental inmate identification cards will include the inmate‘s full name, physical description (height, weight, hair, eyes, date of birth, and gender), the inmate‘s photograph, the inmate‘s signature, the inmate‘s CDC number, and contain the following heading: ―California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR), Temporary Supplemental Identification (ID) Card for Notary Purposes Only.‖ These cards are used for the sole purpose of identifying inmates for notary services and will not be given to the inmate at any time for any reason.


Each institution shall develop and maintain a DOM Supplement in accordance with Civil Code Section 1185, DOM Chapter 1, Article 18, Legal Matters, and DOM Chapter 1, Article 6, Policy Directives.

State of California Code of Corrections – Chapter 1, Article 18, Sections 14010.22 and 14010.22.1 (http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Regulations/A...2013%20DOM.PDF)
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:41 PM
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This right here is where I think the ID thing can be resolved:

14010.22.1 Identification of Persons
An employee acting as a notary may only acknowledge an instrument in accordance with the current Notary Public Handbook published by the Secretary of State.

Satisfactory evidence for incarcerated inmates shall be a supplemental inmate identification card as described below.
Supplemental inmate identification cards will include the inmate‘s full name, physical description (height, weight, hair, eyes, date of birth, and gender), the inmate‘s photograph, the inmate‘s signature, the inmate‘s CDC number, and contain the following heading: ―California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR), Temporary Supplemental Identification (ID) Card for Notary Purposes Only.‖ These cards are used for the sole purpose of identifying inmates for notary services and will not be given to the inmate at any time for any reason.


Each institution shall develop and maintain a DOM Supplement in accordance with Civil Code Section 1185, DOM Chapter 1, Article 18, Legal Matters, and DOM Chapter 1, Article 6, Policy Directives.

State of California Code of Corrections – Chapter 1, Article 18, Sections 14010.22 and 14010.22.1 (http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Regulations/A...2013%20DOM.PDF)
From the way this is written, I can't tell if it says these IDs are already on file, or that they can be created if an inmate needs something notarized.
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  #82  
Old 01-12-2014, 12:18 AM
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I didn't even think of it when I posted, but it would be strange that a notary could use facility, or CDCR-created ID, as government issued ID for the purpose of notary but not as ID for the application process. Ahhh, contradictions abound!

I will have him check into the option of a notary as well as locating one just in case. Thanks again for the info.

....oh wait. It says for notary purpose only. Hmm. Nevermind. :/

Last edited by miamac; 01-12-2014 at 12:19 AM..
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  #83  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:47 AM
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....oh wait. It says for notary purpose only. Hmm. Nevermind. :/
It's relevant becuzz of this. The pieces are all there; I assumed that the MC put these all together to meet the county's need for photo ID.

CDCR Operations Manual, Article 7, Section 101070.5

“Both parties must appear together before the County Clerk with appropriate identification, including proof of age. The County Clerk may examine the applicants for a marriage license under oath to ascertain whether they meet the legal requirements. The County Clerk may send a Deputy Commissioner to a CDCR facility, or deputize an employee of a CDCR facility as a Deputy Commissioner to collect this information from an inmate, and ascertain if the inmate meets the legal requirements to obtain a marriage license.

California Family Code – Section 354 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/FAM/1/d3/2/s354)

(a)Each applicant for a marriage license shall be required to present authentic photo identification acceptable to the county clerk as to name and date of birth. A credible witness affidavit or affidavits may be used in lieu of authentic photo identification.
(b)For the purpose of ascertaining the facts mentioned or required in this part, if the clerk deems it necessary, the clerk may examine the applicants for a marriage license on oath at the time of the application. The clerk shall reduce the examination to writing and the applicants shall sign it.
(c)If necessary, the clerk may request additional documentary proof as to the accuracy of the facts stated. …

California Family Code – Section 426 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/F....NudmtLEW.dpuf)

If for sufficient reason, as described in subdivision (d), either or both of the parties to be married are physically unable to appear in person before the county clerk, a marriage license may be issued by the county clerk to the person solemnizing the marriage if the following requirements are met:
(a) The person solemnizing the marriage physically presents an affidavit to the county clerk explaining the reason for the inability to appear.
(b) The affidavit is signed under penalty of perjury by the person solemnizing the marriage and by both parties.
(c) The signature of any party to be married who is unable to appear in person before the county clerk is authenticated by a notary public or a court prior to the county clerk issuing the marriage license.
(d) Sufficient reason includes proof of hospitalization, incarceration, or any other reason proved to the satisfaction of the county clerk.
State of California Code of Corrections – Chapter 1, Article 18, Sections 14010.22 and 14010.22.1 (http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Regulations/A...2013%20DOM.PDF)
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  #84  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:24 PM
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All the factors are there that enable us to get married, however, they're trying to put holes into it in their own way and saying the county has the discretion to set their requirements that meet the family code or be more conservative.

CDCR itself can verify identity, but for some reason they act like they can't.. I'm going to push this more on the MC. Also, under penal code 426 the individual soleminizing the wedding can use the "inability to appear" affidavit and request the marriage license. If they say no this is where the "identification of persons" in manual kicks in and CAN be used to notarize the "inability to appear form".

I say we're on to something strong.. Lets see what the county clerk has to say tomorrow .. That's when we're supposed to call back for counsel results
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Old 01-12-2014, 07:39 PM
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It's crazy that we have to do all this research and back n forth when they have individuals specifically hired to handle this. :/
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  #86  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:46 PM
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Yes Miamac,

Because he's requesting his BC via notarized request you CAN use notary service.. the "supplemental id" is for notary use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamac View Post
I didn't even think of it when I posted, but it would be strange that a notary could use facility, or CDCR-created ID, as government issued ID for the purpose of notary but not as ID for the application process. Ahhh, contradictions abound!

I will have him check into the option of a notary as well as locating one just in case. Thanks again for the info.

....oh wait. It says for notary purpose only. Hmm. Nevermind. :/
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Old 01-12-2014, 07:50 PM
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Sorry for all the posts... In reading all this its all goes back to the stickler being the county's request for the ID itself to grant the marriage license. FC 426 can be light at the end of the tunnel or counsel coming back with a favorable result
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Old 01-12-2014, 10:15 PM
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Sorry for all the posts... In reading all this its all goes back to the stickler being the county's request for the ID itself to grant the marriage license. FC 426 can be light at the end of the tunnel or counsel coming back with a favorable result
They seem *willing* to make changes to "accommodate" an incarcerated individual's civil right to marry (California Family Code, California Penal Law, CDCR and US Supreme court all call this out specifically for those incarcerated).

When I first talked to the county clerk, she said that the county council was meeting to discuss making it easier for inmates in the county to get married.

OTOH, I found the council meeting minutes from 1/7/14, they had two meetings that day, and I don't see the issue brought to the council:

http://www.co.kern.ca.us/bos/AgendaM...x#.UtNlzvRDtL4

Look under Past/Archived Meetings,

01/07/14 - 02:00PM Regular Meeting PM 01h 16m Minutes Video
01/07/14 - 09:00AM Regular Meeting AM 02h 18m Minutes Video

I don't know what to make of that.

BTW, right above the list of years, you can click Subscribe to Agenda/Minutes and get email when they post new meeting minutes, which is how I found this.

Have a good week, y'all!
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  #89  
Old 01-13-2014, 06:03 PM
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Called the county clerk's office and the girl who answered said that per review: A valid ID is required, and if its not available then an Affidavit from a Credible witness will be accepted in lieu of the ID.

A credible witness is: Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Grandfather/Grandmother.
This individual will be required to go directly to County Clerk's office and swear under oath that inmate is "John Doe" etc. CDCR is not accepted as credible witness.
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxxy_Roxxie View Post
A credible witness is: Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Grandfather/Grandmother.
This individual will be required to go directly to County Clerk's office and swear under oath that inmate is "John Doe" etc. CDCR is not accepted as credible witness.
Sooo...hopefully they have family willing or able to do that? Jeez. This is not good in my case. I'm wondering when they would do that? If the MC won't file the packet until they have ID (am I understanding that correctly?) and they won't have ID until someone swears for them...I'm not sure how that would work.
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  #91  
Old 01-13-2014, 10:48 PM
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Sooo...hopefully they have family willing or able to do that? Jeez. This is not good in my case. I'm wondering when they would do that? If the MC won't file the packet until they have ID (am I understanding that correctly?) and they won't have ID until someone swears for them...I'm not sure how that would work.
Absolutely, miamac. Foxxy_Roxxie, thank you very much for calling and getting that info, and posting it.

I read this at work a couple of hours ago and been turning it over in my mind since then.

It's hard for me to imagine that this can hold up under scrutiny. It's putting the responsibility on the groom to have an immediate family that, well, gives a flip! And that either lives in the county he happens to be incarcerated in, or is willing, able, and wealthy enough to drive or fly to Bakersfield in a weekday.

How will the county verify that the individual who walks in and claims to be a credible witness is a mother, sister, brother or grandparent?

For many if not most individuals, this simply is not a possibility. My loved one tells me that many lifers, especially, are rejected or neglected by their family. I mean, like, for years and years and years. No contact, no support emotional or physical. Left on a shelf like a forgotten can of beans is how my loved one put it once.

Before me, my loved one has not had a visit since the late 1990s. His brother is dead, killed by a man who is serving life in CDCR for the murder. His grandparents have passed. His mother is not mobile. His (half) sister might possibly be able to bring their mother out from out of state, at our expense, but who is to say they will be accepted as credible witnesses? Neither are allowed to visit him becuzz they don't meet the requirements for a visitor's pass. Would they be accepted as credible witnesses, even if they could prove their blood relationship? Which, how would they?

As for distance, Level 4 convicted felons are not housed at a particular maximum security prison becuzz it's close to family! My loved one has no immediate family in the state of Cali. The closest we could come, if we could coordinate it with the family and our money, would be to pay for mom and sis to travel out there. The expense for this would be really really damaging. I am in Washington State and it costs me about a thousand to visit, and we have the cost for the wedding still, and my travel to the wedding.

And like miamac says, you have to prove to the county that the groom is who they say he is, first, in order to get a wedding packet, yet that is also the step CDCR would do later, after the marriage packet is all submitted and verified, and they send the application to the county. My understanding is that by the time the couple applies for a marriage license, the process is already far into the hands of the prison MC. So, um, what was that again?

I'm trying not to be reactionary, but this solution is not a solution to the majority of inmates in Kern County. And a law has to be equitable. Regardless of whether my loved one can make it work, this excludes the majority of individuals it potentially pertains to, based (only) on my hearsay knowledge.

FURTHERMORE, an affidavit is defined as "A written statement of facts, sworn to and signed by a deponent before a notary public or some other authority having the power to witness an oath." It is an oath given under penalty of perjury in lieu of appearing in court to give an oath in front of a judge. That's the purpose and function of a notary public.

To me this sounds like a "not my problem" solution. I don't see this as a legitimate solution, becuzz, it's not functional.
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  #92  
Old 01-13-2014, 10:53 PM
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With all of this, some would and do say, he's in prison, he's paying the price.

But that is not the issue. California State, CDCR, and the US Supreme Court specifically say that incarcerated individuals have a civil right to marry. If that right is impeded by regulations to the point of literally not being possible, the right to marry is being blocked, contrary to law.

I'm not a lawsuit kind of person, never done it, who can afford it, but I think that this is an instance where this will be worked out based on public persuasion.

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  #93  
Old 01-13-2014, 11:47 PM
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@Truthneverdies...I could practically have written the same thing. I travel from Oregon and I was the first visit my fiance had in seven years. He is blessed with family who loves him and tries to stay in touch, but he's been gone a long time and the majority of them do not, as you mentioned, meet the criteria for visitation. That combined with being far away from where they live leaves him pretty isolated. This places a burden on them to travel and expend funds they don't have for something that, in this case, benefits solely him and me. We're grown adults and should be able to handle a simple (and truly, I've been married. It is simple) marriage application.

I just spoke with a member of his family who mentioned that when his brother was incarcerated he had no social security number, no birth certificate and no drivers license. And yet, miraculously, his identity could be verified sufficiently for sentencing. I can't imagine anyone seeing this scenario and not deeming it ridiculous. If the existing ID is enough to lock them up, it is adequate for the county to issue a marriage license.
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  #94  
Old 01-14-2014, 01:23 AM
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I just spoke with a member of his family who mentioned that when his brother was incarcerated he had no social security number, no birth certificate and no drivers license. And yet, miraculously, his identity could be verified sufficiently for sentencing. I can't imagine anyone seeing this scenario and not deeming it ridiculous. If the existing ID is enough to lock them up, it is adequate for the county to issue a marriage license.
I know! At the first place I went to visit him, the form they gave me to take to the visiting room to give to the OC there had his mugshot on it. I mean, really. Pfft.

A while back I got all good-citizeny and look into what he had to do to find out his SSN, which he had when he legally worked as a teenager, and I couldn't get the info. He said his counselor said don't worry about it, you'll get that taken care of when you are released.

My loved one makes the point that when he is released, he'll be given photo ID so that he can get a state-issued ID, whether driver's license, or otherwise. He'll walk out the door with some sort of photo ID. They'll be very interested in being able to access a parolee thru photo ID>

What's funny is that we had a really hard time getting his birth certificate for the marriage packet. His birth county wouldn't accept a signed request by him sent in by me with a check from me; they wouldn't accept a written request sent directly by him with a trust fund withdrawal from CDCR; his step mother couldn't get it when she went in person (which I expected). Finally I sent all the paperwork, with detailed instructions, stamped and addressed envelopes, and a money order, to his sister to sit down with his mom and prepare everything needed to send in. They sent the birth certificate to her.

And now, after she was able to prove his identity and her relation to him to get his birth certificate, she would have to do the exact same thing, to prove his identity, and her relation to him, in exactly the same manner, in person, a second time. Although I bet that in this case she would be held to an even higher standard to prove her own identity, standing before a court clerk.

It crushes my heart to have family reject people in this way. I must not have a good understanding of what it's like for them, but oh man, it devastates me. They'll mourn family who are gone, and not treasure and love up those who are alive and in tremendous need of support. A letter once a year, or once in 10 years, for example.

This all for people who are almost all literally impoverished, the inmates. Yes, the CDCR owns every aspect of their entire lives. Every single little, minute detail. (On a side note, I don't see how infantalizing however many adults are in the state prison system, and having them lay on their bunks watching TV for 20 years, while paying a lot of money to provide their every single living requirement, is effective or efficient punishment for breaking the social agreements. Technology shows we have an amazing ability to invent and problem solve, but nobody can think of a more efficient and effective way to punish and/or rehabilitate felons than this.)

They should have a form that their correctional counselor, for example, could sign to confirm the inmate's identity, and sign in front of the MC/notary public. Then the MC includes that in whatever they send to the county to request a marriage license.

My take is that CDCR doesn't want to be involved. I don't know what to say.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:29 AM
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We're going to have to acquire a birth certificate for him. His brother has offered to get it for us, which is awesome, but I am worried that it won't be as easy as it sounds.

So, is this the final say from the county or is there something/someone else we need to be in touch with to make this happen? I'm happy to help.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:29 AM
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This shows, though, how one person (caught) doing wrong, i.e., the person who was able to get married using an alias (I thought the birth certificate would prevent this) "ruins it for everybody."

The same with the dress code for women. CDCR has to prepare to handle the greatest common denominator.

Last time I went to visit wearing a sweater over a tank top. Believe you me, I wouldn't take that sweater off becuzz I didn't want people seeing my fluffy love handles. But the CO said, I've heard that before, come back after you change.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxxy_Roxxie View Post
It's crazy that we have to do all this research and back n forth when they have individuals specifically hired to handle this. :/
Yeah.

Thanks again for sharing the info you've gotten.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamac View Post
We're going to have to acquire a birth certificate for him. His brother has offered to get it for us, which is awesome, but I am worried that it won't be as easy as it sounds.

So, is this the final say from the county or is there something/someone else we need to be in touch with to make this happen? I'm happy to help.
My sense is that most counties or states will release a birth certificate only to the individual or the mother or father on the birth certificate. The county where my loved one was born would only accept a fee that demonstrated it originated with the individual or parent. The county or state will have the exact requirements on their vital statistics website. It took us several months because of the thing about the fee coming only from the "child" or parent. His father lives in the county where he was born and wouldn't participate in the process. He could have went to the local office and picked it up in an hour.

I'm thinking it's not likely a sibling could get a copy of a sibling's cert but there's no telling.

I'm not sure what my next step is. I'll be talking with my loved one tomorrow and see what he wants to do. I think we'll probably work on doing what we need to do to proceed, but I also think that I'll let things shake out a bit and then poke. Injustice drives me nuts. You wouldn't think so, huh.

I wish you the best in finding a (quick) way through this, miamac and Foxxy_Roxxie.
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Last edited by thingsnotseen; 01-14-2014 at 01:58 AM.. Reason: misspelled PT member's name!
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  #99  
Old 01-15-2014, 01:17 AM
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Believe me ladies I'm just as frustrated as you and quite disappointed at how the county and CDCR wash their hands and make it difficult to get married, which as we all know is wrong/illegal.

My mind has been stirring thinking of what questions to ask or what action to take next. As it stands right now that is the county's answer: ID or a credible witness (immediate family) identifying inmate. It sounds easy for them to say and require that, but as both of you have mentioned and in my personal experience most inmates don't have immediate family , and if they do because of time in prison or years gone by hardly have any or no contact.

I went through a rollercoaster getting his BC from New York, with the help of his father who lives on the east coast... Pretty much typed the letter and got the money order, mailed it to his father, who then went to a notary (NY clerk wanted notarized request), and then mailed letter and payment to get BC.

I know asking him to come to CA is out of the question, smh.. so who knows what we're going to do now. It frustrates me.. This whole process .. THEY KNOW who the inmate is.. and as we read in the CDCR manual they have a f*n supplememtal ID for them... Why cant that be used? Or why is CDCR not allowed to verify the inmate.. they have all their info, fingerprints, etc?! Smh, this is ridiculous.

I'm going to call the MC tomorrow and County Clerk and pick their brain and see what I come up with.. There has to be a way around this. And also write the Ombudsman and see if he can help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthneverdies View Post
My sense is that most counties or states will release a birth certificate only to the individual or the mother or father on the birth certificate. The county where my loved one was born would only accept a fee that demonstrated it originated with the individual or parent. The county or state will have the exact requirements on their vital statistics website. It took us several months because of the thing about the fee coming only from the "child" or parent. His father lives in the county where he was born and wouldn't participate in the process. He could have went to the local office and picked it up in an hour.

I'm thinking it's not likely a sibling could get a copy of a sibling's cert but there's no telling.

I'm not sure what my next step is. I'll be talking with my loved one tomorrow and see what he wants to do. I think we'll probably work on doing what we need to do to proceed, but I also think that I'll let things shake out a bit and then poke. Injustice drives me nuts. You wouldn't think so, huh.

I wish you the best in finding a (quick) way through this, miamac and Foxxy_Roxxie.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:23 AM
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What county was your honey born in? LA County allows a sibling to request BC.
Most do but if needed its easy to double check specifics to each county


Quote:
Originally Posted by miamac View Post
We're going to have to acquire a birth certificate for him. His brother has offered to get it for us, which is awesome, but I am worried that it won't be as easy as it sounds.

So, is this the final say from the county or is there something/someone else we need to be in touch with to make this happen? I'm happy to help.
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