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  #51  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:23 PM
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This is awful...it just gets worse and worse
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  #52  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:38 PM
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Default US judge temporarily blocks 2nd Arkansas execution

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The State of Arkansas has already killed one man tonight, another sets waiting on 9 p,m
Its very sad to say the least.
US judge temporarily blocks 2nd Arkansas execution
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:44 PM
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:46 PM
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btw, if it had been successful, Mr. Williams would have survived the night by virtue of Mr. Jones's execution. Apparently it took Arkansas more than 45 minutes to set the IV into Mr. Jones, including at least one attempt into the neck. Since Mr. Williams weighs in at over 400 lbs, and the problem with Mr. Jones was his size, the argument was unduly cruel and painful.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:51 PM
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btw, if it had been successful, Mr. Williams would have survived the night by virtue of Mr. Jones's execution. Apparently it took Arkansas more than 45 minutes to set the IV into Mr. Jones, including at least one attempt into the neck. Since Mr. Williams weighs in at over 400 lbs, and the problem with Mr. Jones was his size, the argument was unduly cruel and painful.
*sigh*
I put that link up one minute after it was released.

Ya know, this inability to place an IV is 100% due to whoever is attempting it not having a fn clue what they're doing. 45 minutes to find a vein? bullshit. Pure Incompetence. That right there should be reason for cruel and unusual.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:39 PM
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*sigh*
I put that link up one minute after it was released.

Ya know, this inability to place an IV is 100% due to whoever is attempting it not having a fn clue what they're doing. 45 minutes to find a vein? bullshit. Pure Incompetence. That right there should be reason for cruel and unusual.
To be fair, Mr. Jones was over 350 lbs, had already lost a leg to diabetes, and was pretty vascularly compromised.

I suffered a vascular injury to my left arm as a result of my motorcycle accident. Combined with the 5 weeks of hospitalization, every subsequent surgery has resulted in some difficulty finding and keeping a vein. I can warn people up and down that there's a ton of scar tissue on veins with both arms, and most nurses disregard what I have to say until they are mandated by hospital policy to stop and get somebody else to try. And my veins were good until that point as I didn't have diabetes, worked out regularly, and was considered an "easy stick" (as my veins popped even without a tourniquet) prior to this whole thing. I now have a much greater appreciation for those with vascular problems including morbid obesity (which, while the veins might not be compromised, still makes it difficult to find them).

Details now are that they tried with Mr. Jones in the neck for 45 minutes before going elsewhere. By that, I'd figure they did a cut-down in his groin.

I also don't know the drug use of either man. IV use could lead to real problems and inmates in other states have been known to insert their own IV when it became too difficult to wait for a "pro" to do it right.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:41 PM
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While I was writing that, news just came down that Mr. Williams has been executed
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:03 PM
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I also don't know the drug use of either man. IV use could lead to real problems and inmates in other states have been known to insert their own IV when it became too difficult to wait for a "pro" to do it right.
This is spot on. My dad was a drug user and always offered to place his own. It caused him a great deal of pain watching nurses pass the needle trying to place an iv when I was in labor with my first child.

My heart aches for everyone involved in these deaths
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:59 AM
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Since doctors won't participate in executions because of the Hippocratic oath (do no harm, and killing someone is certainly harmful), IV's and cut downs have to be initiated by less qualified prison staff.

That will always beg the question, botched or not, of could the process have been less cruel (but not unusual in the US) if a more qualified person was wielding the scalpel. You don't need a doctor to start an IV, but when problems arise, it may take one to get the procedure right.
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:56 PM
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I have diabetes, I've weighed 260 lbs,when I should weigh 130#. I've been bloated/puffy with water due to chronic kidney disease on top of that. Inserting an IV is not a difficult procedure for someone who is trained. A trained plebotomist or especially an EMT could do it with ease. It does not take an MD or an RN. It should never take more than a few minutes - including the time it takes to get someone else who hopefully knows what they're dong.

My anger is with them trying to place a central line in the man's neck. That is a procedure that definitely takes an MD who is practiced in the procedure. No way could an EMT, RN or general practice MD accomplish it.
It is a procedure for which the patient is unconscious, due to the pain it causes. They had no business even considering it.


A "cut down" made sound gruesome, but it'd be the most humane way. A shot of lidocaine in an arm, a brief wait for it to take effect, a small, shallow cut with a scalpel -in an arm - VIOLA! You can see the vein and it's done.

The fact that someone was an IV drug user - twenty plus years ago?! That's really reaching for an excuse to not be able to find a vein.

If you can actually see veins bulging and it's still difficult for someone to place an IV? One attempt MAX and then demand someone else do it. I've watched IVs be placed in 2# newborns. I've watched IVs be placed in bariatric patients weighing 500# plus.

It does not take an MD. It does take someone who has been trained in the procedure.
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  #61  
Old 04-25-2017, 04:21 PM
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My understanding is that nurses take an oath somewhat like a doctor - the do no harm thing. Most will not participate for fear that their licenses will become suspended. This is yet another reason for the secrecy laws that surround executions - they are hoping more medical people will breach the contemporary interpretations of their oaths and participate.

And yes, IV drug abuse can have long term adverse effects to veins. The scarring involved makes for interesting IV insertion. More than a year and a half after a long stint in the hospital, I can attest to this. I haven't had an IV in the crook of my elbow in that year and a half. Today, the phlebotomist insisted, because it looks like I have great veins there. They are very difficult to puncture. It sucks. She tried twice before actually listening to me. Further, I've had clients who were drug addicts decades ago who have difficulty. A lot of difficulty. The last time I was at the vascular surgeon's office, a woman next to me was getting a blood draw - she was diabetic, had lost a leg due to diabetes. She was getting some blood levels drawn because of plaque, same as me (bypass in the thigh). She was pleasantly surprised when it only took two attempts. I only took one, but then that phlebotomist is used to listening to the patients with bad veins.

Had a cousin in law who had a drug problem for 20 years. He'd been clean for 10. The scars on his arms are impressive. Then again, he had an infection that pretty much fried some of the veins in his arms and hands. Really impressive keloiding scars.

Here's the thing - no matter if it can be done quickly or not - they chose to try his neck first. They did a cutdown in his groin. It took 45 minutes. Romeo Broom in Ohio took so long to insert the IV that he was given a bathroom break. Randy Wools helped the execution team by inserting the IV himself in Texas - he was a long time drug addict who was totally clean while on death row. Ricky ray Recktor in Arkansas also helped his execution team find a vein. Billy Wayne White also assisted in finding a vein in Texas - he had been a long term heroin abuser. The anecdotal evidence is there - just look at the history of botched lethal injections.
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Old 04-25-2017, 04:26 PM
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Since doctors won't participate in executions because of the Hippocratic oath (do no harm, and killing someone is certainly harmful), IV's and cut downs have to be initiated by less qualified prison staff.

That will always beg the question, botched or not, of could the process have been less cruel (but not unusual in the US) if a more qualified person was wielding the scalpel. You don't need a doctor to start an IV, but when problems arise, it may take one to get the procedure right.
But it is unusual. Do you know the chances that you're going to actually face execution for a gruesome murder? You are much more likely to face LWOP or less.

My friend, Shane in Tennessee is serving LWOP. He was 22 when he killed his former girlfriend's father, shot her mother with the intent of murdering her, and kidnapped his former girlfriend before leading police on a high speed chase. The death penalty was never on the table. In Tennessee.

Most murderers will not face death. You have to win the reverse lottery to get on death row, let alone executed.

Yes, the "unusual" part is not technically met because the majority of states still have a death penalty law on the books. But, in practical terms? You are not likely to face death, even in Texas (with the exception of Harris County, and even then, there are more murders in that county than there are attempts to get a death sentence).

Oh, and if you're a woman? Just don't kill your own child.
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  #63  
Old 04-25-2017, 09:22 PM
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*sigh* I'm sorry if I'm sounding bitchy . . . I'm feeling bitchy and venting it out here - cuz face it, can't exactly discuss it with my facebook "friends" . . .

See y'all Thursday
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:39 PM
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*sigh* I'm sorry if I'm sounding bitchy . . . I'm feeling bitchy and venting it out here - cuz face it, can't exactly discuss it with my facebook "friends" . . .

See y'all Thursday
make new friends. Facebook is great for it, especially if you're an abolitionist. I'm friends with a few different types of people in that arena, and exclude other friends from my view of that world because they would just fail to see the importance.

I am friends with fellow attorneys, a few victims (who are pro abolition), and few siblings of the executed. Sister Helen is there - and she's a tweeter as well, as are a few other luminaries in the area. But, personally, I prefer the siblings. Probably because the sibling friends I have are all siblings of brothers who are sociopaths. In that way, I can totally relate, at least as far as their early life with a sibling who turned into a sociopath. I don't know what it's like to have a sibling executed, but I do know the sociopath, prison cycle.

And, they know all the best protests, are present at a lot of executions, go on panels with those who've been exonerated to talk about the death penalty, and work through abolition to heal their own pain.

Good people. You just have to use the friends list features very judiciously, and the privacy settings.

See you Thursday. Hope you find yourself in a better place.
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  #65  
Old 04-26-2017, 03:46 PM
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I've been following these in the news. That alot.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:57 PM
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AR Supreme Court just denied all stays for Kenneth Williams. The family of one of his victims is asking that he be spared.

http://www.kspr.com/content/news/Oza...420434143.html
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  #67  
Old 04-26-2017, 04:04 PM
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AR Supreme Court just denied all stays for Kenneth Williams. The family of one of his victims is asking that he be spared.

http://www.kspr.com/content/news/Oza...420434143.html
"For them that chance is making sure the killer gets to see his family one last time. The victim’s family just bought Williams’ daughter and granddaughter plane tickets; so, they could get here before the execution."

I'm crying hysterically in the bathroom at work.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:12 PM
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I am sorry Sinir.fridyrr. I cried when I read it too. It's wonderful that this family is willing and able to help William's family. I just wish someone with the power to stop this atrocity would listen to them.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:43 PM
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The problem is that they won't listen to the family of the victim. They will again say that the victim deserves this sort of justice.

Personally, I think their reasoning sucks. Ronnie Gardner who was shot to death by the State of Utah for the murder of an attorney had a victim who was staunchly anti-death penalty. His family, including his daughter (victim's family) were very vocal about saying they didn't want an execution, that the victim wouldn't have wanted an execution, and they came to the prison to protest the execution. They still executed Mr. Gardner. In Texas, it happened with Mark Strohman as well. Strohman killed a Sikh in retaliation for 9/11. He murdered one Pakistani, and shot Rais Bhuiyan. During the years that Stroman was on death row, Strohman repudiated his supremacist beliefs, in part because Bhutan prompted muslims to contribute to Strohman's defense. He tried valiantly to save Strohman's life, making national news when he sued Texas for his rights as a victim to interface with Strohman in a victim impact program that seemed to guarantee his rights to a victim impact program. It didn't work.

Let's hope this time the Gov. of Arkansas actually listens to the victim's family and commutes. I have friends on the ground helping this family and the family of Mr. Williams out. They are much stronger people than me.

Btw, if you are on Twitter, friend Sister Helen Prejean - she fired off a tweet storm to beat all tweet storms during the Williams/Jones executions. She fired full bore at the Gov. It was stellar. It didn't work, but it was still stellar. I love that woman.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:48 PM
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The man holding up the daughter of Mr. Jones is Randy Gardner, brother of Ronnie Gardner, executed by the State of Utah a number of years ago. He is a die hard abolitionist, a fantastic person, and stronger than just about any human could be. He's one of those "collateral damage" resulting from execution and has used his rage to help others and to fight executions. He was one of 12 (?) arrested on the steps of the SCOTUS recently. He's the one wearing the orange jumpsuit, which belonged to his brother.

He's one strong man. Each one of these executions is felt deeply by the man.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...day/100932032/
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:42 PM
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Here's a great deal n depth article about the double execution and the daughter of Mr. jones

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/26/...n-in-arkansas/
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:37 AM
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I am so thankful that there are people like Randy Gardner and Sister Helen to help the victims families of state sponsored murders. I wish more people could hear their stories. In the Greenwood family's case (Williams) they were ambivalent about the death penalty just a few days ago, until they connected with his daughter Jasmine. Now they are asking that he be spared. People can and would change their minds if they just listened to each other.

Thank you for the articles yourself. I am going to make a donation to Death Penalty Action, the organization that helped Ms. Grimm travel to AR to see her father before his death.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:11 AM
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She's in AR with her daughter. She's staying at the same hotel as the victims who paid her airfare to see that she had the opportunity to have these potentially last visits. The photos Randy and friends are sharing are extraordinary as the two families meet for the same purpose - to try to save Mr. Williams.

I'm crying with each photo they share.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:41 AM
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Is Randy Gardner on Twitter? I have seen many great posts by Sister Helen but cannot find him. Where is he sharing the pictures?
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:15 PM
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Is Randy Gardner on Twitter? I have seen many great posts by Sister Helen but cannot find him. Where is he sharing the pictures?
He hasn't figured Twitter out and isn't on Twitter. He prefers Facebook.

A great resource for pics is the Death Penalty Photography Documentary Project.
Randy is part of Journey of Hope and has travelled extensively, when he can get funding, as part of JoH. Both JoH and the Photography project are on line and on Facebook.

https://www.journeyofhope.org


http://www.deathpenaltyphoto.org
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