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  #26  
Old 09-02-2005, 08:59 PM
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Don't give up, David. You are the voice of reason and I agree with you! This was a catastrophic failure on behalf of the citizens who were ordered to leave and either couldn't or wouldn't. If that would have been me, I would have stuck my thumb out on the highway and started walking out of town. The city and county have failed because of their inability to have designated evacuation routes and public city buses set up with prearranged routes out of town. The state for failing to get the national guard of each state mobilized and prestaged around New Orleans which was doomed for catastrophe simply by the georgraphy of the city. It has been known around New Orleans for years, if you are a tourist, don't leave the French Quarter unless you are with locals. And of course failure on the federal level. Food and water could have been choppered in. I don't understand why not, but blaming Bush is not the answer. Well, maybe it is for some of you, including Michael Moore. When other natural large scale disasters occured, help did not arrive the next day. The tsunami disaster took about 10 days to really get the aid rolling in but we short sighted Americans don't pay attention to that. "Everything is Bush's fault, even the hurricane!!"
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  #27  
Old 09-02-2005, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waiting again
Goodness, David...I think I love you more everyday.... I was sittin' here nodding my head the whole way through this...people are going on their "political beliefs" here...not FACT. Like you said...what was President Bush supposed to do...stop the hurricane? Like you said later on in this thread...."I give up"................
I am sitting here thinking the same things Sel. I can't believe this idiot MM is using this as a damn soap box!!! JESUS!! Get off your soap box Mr. Moore - and why don't you send some of your money to help these people.
The first person you should get out is that idiot Geraldo Rivera. He is going to cause a riot.

Speaking of which........
People of ALL races need to cut that crap out!! You are all in the same boat - attacking one another isn't helping anything and it's not helping when you prevent the people you are demanding be sent in from coming in.

Poverty has nothing to do with whether these people are being evacuated. The SICK - the INJURED and the ELDERY of ALL colors are being put on those busses and choppers. There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE there - they can't all be taken out at once. There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who were warned WELL IN ADVANCE and many that were caught by surprise - what was the government supposed to do?? They DID tell them to "get the hell out of Dodge". My honeys 85 yr old Grandma was in Slidell - her daughter came from Pass Christian to get her and took her to what they thought would be safety. That home is gone - and all we get are brief messages from them - at last we know that they are "alive".

LOOTERS!!! Are the morons taking PLAYSTATIONS and TV's .......whether you are white, black, purple green or blue, if you are taking things of that nature you are disgusting and if a cop puts a gun to your head - so be it!! If what I say offends anyone, I won't apologize...I don't think anyone feels any animosity towards people who took NECESSITIES - a TV, Playstation and diamond necklace isn't a necessity. Maybe you should help the elderly woman next to you make it to safety - be a HUMAN and help your fellow man/woman. Camera's do not lie - if they catch you on tape taking a TV and walking past a child who needs help to get through the water - you are a LOOTER and you should be ashamed of yourself. If you break a window to get food for that kid - you are "doing what you have to do" and not one person on this earth would blame you for it.

Mr. Moore - get off your fat a## and help - and spend less time writing our ELECTED president just to gain press.

Stop blaming the government - there is no way that the government, this or any government could have possibly been prepared for this horrible tragedy. It is difficult to organize these things and get to everyone and no matter how quickly they could have or should have gotten everyone help - it will never be fast enough for all of them - as sad as it is.


Thoroughly disgusted.......

Dani

Last edited by betrayed_4_life; 09-02-2005 at 09:53 PM.. Reason: so PO'd I had a hundred typos
  #28  
Old 09-02-2005, 09:53 PM
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  #29  
Old 09-02-2005, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QT-LN
When other natural large scale disasters occured, help did not arrive the next day. The tsunami disaster took about 10 days to really get the aid rolling in but we short sighted Americans don't pay attention to that. "Everything is Bush's fault, even the hurricane!!"
Ok i gotta respond to this one. Actually the aid for the Tsunami did start the very next day and the tourists which were there and were not involved in it themselves helped out as much as they possibly could have, so YES the aid was there right from the get go, maybe you should seek facts before making them up.

No the hurricane itself isn't his fault, but many other things are. Why would he sit back and watch and not even lift a finger to help right from the very start?.

I have heard on the news here (Australia) that they are now no longer worried about the dead which are floating around the streets and are now trying to save those which are stranded, which is great, but wouldn't removing the dead from the streets, be benificial in the long run, due to high heat and humidity, disease will soon follow, which will in the long run cause even more to die. This was also a concern from the Tsunami. So why can't there be specialised groups to deal with each, because in my eyes they are both just as important.

Again only my 2 cents worth, actually 5 cents worth... we don't have a 2 cent peice here in oz.
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  #30  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:13 PM
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Nooo, David, don't give up! QT-LN, betrayed_4_life and Sel...I'm with y'all. I hate that slob Michael Moore and his hogwash propaganda. Instead of taking cheap shots at the President, why doesn't he lend a hand to the relief effort? I'm not much of a political person, but that Michael Moore just makes my blood boil and I couldn't keep my to myself.
  #31  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:28 PM
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Nimuay,
You're way left of Democrat? No way! lol

I'm glad you love the site and can differentiate between my personal views and that of the community, which are often quite different and I have no problem at all with that. Like most people, there are things I feel strongly about, and pointing fingers and playing the race card are one of them when I don't feel they have any bearing on the rescue of these people. Sure, there definitely are times when race comes into play and people get hurt... And it is a two way street.

So, what part of my politics exactly don't you like? I consider myself leaning to the right but certainly not heavily. While I would have voted for Bush if I were able to, I disagree with a lot of things he does.. However, I disagree more with hollow talk and exploiting people. So, that would be the lesser of two evils, IMO.

By your own words, you lean to the extreme left and that should make for some interesting conversations should we get into a debate over politics. (Not in this thread) My issue here though is all the people assessing blame, pointing fingers and saying this is about race... I think it is sad. In the end, I believe in what I feel is right and fair..

Yes, I did start a thread about prisoners stuck on a bridge after I started another one after calling the police department to find out if they were moving inmates out of there. I also think people should be prosecuted for putting not only the prisoners into harms way but also the warden.. (Can he be charged for his own stupidity? lol) What does this have to do with my other views? I see it as wrong.. Not political.
There is a HUGE difference in negligent actions and those that are not. No removing prisoners from a jail in the path of a hurricane is extremely negligent.

You mention supplies didn't get on their way for 5 days? They were staging even before the storm hit and were on their way as soon as the storm cleared. Again, fact... Not fiction or what Michael Moore says.. Easy to substantiate. Why is that hard to accept?

As for people not being able to get out because they were broke or poor is not a good excuse for most of the people - with the exception of handicapped, crippled or those who cannot walk. How many people have been rescued now from the city (not including the Superdome)? I think the latest figure is over 25,000! Most of them could walk and move around without any problem, especially the thousands of people ran-sacking (looting) the stores. These same people could have made it to the Super Dome for shelter or made an effort to leave. They did not and they did not by choice.

Well before the Hurricane hit the Mayor of New Orleans had all the radio and TV stations mass-broadcast a mandatory evacuation and that a killer storm was coming. They drove around in vehicles on the PA's announcing this. Only the smallest fraction of the population might have not known this was serious. I think the big failure is that nobody thought it was going to be this bad. They thought they would just weather it in their homes or wherever. That decision was not based on poverty. It was based on ignorance of what was gunning for everyone on the coast. That isn't just a New Orleans problem but just about all of us that live near the coast (except maybe Florida) dismiss hurricanes as no problem to survive. Well, all of us were wrong that though this one could be faded.

The National Guard troops would and will be of use here but I don't think a lot of people understand how the National Guard works. They are NOT a full-time force that is always ready to go. Further, only part of the National Guard's duty is as backup for regular law enforcement and the related in times of crisis. The end result is that this "National Guard" is not just hanging around waiting to go.

I'm sure some of you won't believe this but there are A LOT of politics at play in a situation like this or any disaster and it isn't Liberal versus Conservative. In any situation the feds try and defer to the locals before they get involved so they don't get their feathers in a ruffle. It is crystal clear that Louisiana's own emergency disaster plan for New Orleans was a total failure. I don't think anyone expected there to be a total loss of communications. Not until the state and mayor starts asking for help are they really going to mobilize the National Guard from other states, etc..

Ok, I’m out of gas for the night… Tear it apart.

David

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimuay
David - we love your site and you, but . . . your politics!!!! (If I recall correctly, you were the one with the post about not evacuating the N.O. jail). Lots of people were aware of the disaster impending, but the idea that we could get supplies on the way to Banda Aceh in 2 days and not to New Orleans or Bay St. Louis for 5 . . . oh my!! These are people who had no cars, no money for gas - so just because someone says get out doesn't mean they actually can! Money for all of this could have been available had the "tax cuts" not been passed by Congress and signed by the President. And he really didn't hurry there, now, did he? Do you really think that the National Guard troops -and their equipment - would have been of no use in this situation? and on and on . . .

I lived, for a while, out in Metairie, between New Orleans and Ponchartrain - nice middle-class development (which I hated, I might add), but I prowled a lot of the area, and the poverty - oh my god! - it's been neglected forever. There is no question that classism/racism was involved in ignoring it. That left it open for this disaster. And I think that most of us feel that Republicans, even if it is incidental to their primary aims, manage to pass laws that are felt more negatively in the poor and black and Hispanic communities. And it's hard to find young healthy white faces in the videos of the disaster, isn't it? And why was Tulane Hospital evacuated, with all its non-essential personnel, while the community hospital across the street still has 200 patients, with nothing but staff pumping bags to keep them alive.

It's the cumulative impact that you end up having to consider. And it's beginning to look a lot like the entire upper echelon of the political system never has cared. So they never set up a safety net.

Gotta admit - I'm way left of Democrat, so I'm damn glad somebody with the abillity
that Michael Moore has to put things into words has at least come close to the right wing of my feelings.
  #32  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:32 PM
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David - Well put! Finally, a voice of reason!

Remember, y'all, the President can't order in troops; look up Posse Comitatus, or 18 U.S.C. 1385. The *Governor* can order in the local National Guard. So if blames lies anywhere, it's with the (Democrat) Governor of Louisiana...

The rest of Michael Moore's invalid propaganda has been adequately countered elsewhere...
  #33  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:34 PM
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And this isn't about "giving up".. I don't want to divide anyone here or create some segregation of views, but I also feel the need to answer what I feel is completely without merit and solely a continuation of a political fight by Michael Moore.

I want everyone to be able to express their point of view. That is what having a good healthy debate is about. In the case of Michael Moore, I strongly feel he exploits the people he claims to be looking out for and is a master provocateur for his own gain. (Of course, he is definitely not the only one on any side of the isle) I am also fully aware that a great many others in this county and at PTO disagree with my views on him and that is ok. That is what America is about.

On a side note, it would be interesting to know how much of his personal money he donates to helping the Katrina victims and that of other disasters. Maybe he has contributed..?? Anyone got figures that can be substantiated?
  #34  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strasse
Remember, y'all, the President can't order in troops; look up Posse Comitatus, or 18 U.S.C. 1385. The *Governor* can order in the local National Guard. So if blames lies anywhere, it's with the (Democrat) Governor of Louisiana...
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strasse
David - Well put! Finally, a voice of reason!

Remember, y'all, the President can't order in troops; look up Posse Comitatus, or 18 U.S.C. 1385. The *Governor* can order in the local National Guard. So if blames lies anywhere, it's with the (Democrat) Governor of Louisiana...

The rest of Michael Moore's invalid propaganda has been adequately countered elsewhere...
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  #36  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betrayed_4_life
I am sitting here thinking the same things Sel. I can't believe this idiot MM is using this as a damn soap box!!! JESUS!! Get off your soap box Mr. Moore - and why don't you send some of your money to help these people.
The first person you should get out is that idiot Geraldo Rivera. He is going to cause a riot.

Speaking of which........
People of ALL races need to cut that crap out!! You are all in the same boat - attacking one another isn't helping anything and it's not helping when you prevent the people you are demanding be sent in from coming in.

Poverty has nothing to do with whether these people are being evacuated. The SICK - the INJURED and the ELDERY of ALL colors are being put on those busses and choppers. There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE there - they can't all be taken out at once. There are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who were warned WELL IN ADVANCE and many that were caught by surprise - what was the government supposed to do?? They DID tell them to "get the hell out of Dodge". My honeys 85 yr old Grandma was in Slidell - her daughter came from Pass Christian to get her and took her to what they thought would be safety. That home is gone - and all we get are brief messages from them - at last we know that they are "alive".

LOOTERS!!! Are the morons taking PLAYSTATIONS and TV's .......whether you are white, black, purple green or blue, if you are taking things of that nature you are disgusting and if a cop puts a gun to your head - so be it!! If what I say offends anyone, I won't apologize...I don't think anyone feels any animosity towards people who took NECESSITIES - a TV, Playstation and diamond necklace isn't a necessity. Maybe you should help the elderly woman next to you make it to safety - be a HUMAN and help your fellow man/woman. Camera's do not lie - if they catch you on tape taking a TV and walking past a child who needs help to get through the water - you are a LOOTER and you should be ashamed of yourself. If you break a window to get food for that kid - you are "doing what you have to do" and not one person on this earth would blame you for it.

Mr. Moore - get off your fat a## and help - and spend less time writing our ELECTED president just to gain press.

Stop blaming the government - there is no way that the government, this or any government could have possibly been prepared for this horrible tragedy. It is difficult to organize these things and get to everyone and no matter how quickly they could have or should have gotten everyone help - it will never be fast enough for all of them - as sad as it is.


Thoroughly disgusted.......

Dani
Well said, I could not agree more!
  #37  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:42 PM
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I give up!!! why am I reading this? David Thank YOU! YOu said everything I wanted to. I am not getting into this.

In High school I was on the debate team, and I beat the hell out of one of the people on the other team and got suspended. I am not looking to here
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:49 PM
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Lol.. I've gotten much more calm in my debating style over the years.
  #39  
Old 09-02-2005, 10:50 PM
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I didnt know who Michael Moore was, and could probably care less who he is. I stated that I agreed, not so much because of my political views and where I stand, but most importantly because I feel this is inhumane, and plain wrong. It has stopped being about politics for me, its about people being greedy and not lending each other a hand, its about how sick and cruel our nation has become, the way materialism has dominated our nation, and split it in half....and the lack of control.

What can we possibly expect if our own brothers and sisters wont help us in such a desperate time of need? I could care less about Bush, Moore, and Rove. I have straight out given up on politicians as a whole becuz for the most part, and again entirely my point of view, theyare all full of empty promises. They give us all these speeches that we want to hear to get our vote, and once elected they blow us off, and forget about all those promises.

As I said before, my heart breaks for these families, for their loved ones, for all those whom are deceased in the wake of such a terrible and horrendous tragedy... but most importantly my heart breaks for all these children. The innocent children, especially those who are too young to understand what is going on. For all those impoverished people who were homeless, and even though some of you state that they could have found a way to evacuate somehow... I dont think you all would have been walking on foot in the scorchering heat, for the simple fact that you would have still gotten sick of either heat exhaustion, dehydration, heat stroke, and I can go on and on about different things that can happen in the heat. How were mothers supposed to carry their children along a long road under these conditions... it is easy for people to talk and say things that these people should have been done, but we must understand that not all of them could simply get up and try to walk away from it.

I agree people can go on and on about the racism issue, and I agree that for the most part the vast majority of the population was of black descent, some Hispanics/Latinos, as well as white... but not as much. In my point, it has stopped being about racism, but about the fact that a lot of us feel that so much more could have been done in time to help these people.

And we can go on to the same place where we started... regardless of whether politicians are democratic, republican, liberal.... they are mostly all rich white people, and even if they arent white, they are still filthy rich and could never understand what us poor working class people must endure day by day in order to simply survive. They are so used to their luxuries, and so fond of their special treatment that they could simply care less about the rest of us.
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:50 PM
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Ok, I'm really going to sleep now.. Too much CNN, Fox and all sorts of other things when I should be doing something else.. I can tell you Katrina has affected all of us in some form or fashion and I hope we learn from her.
  #41  
Old 09-02-2005, 11:00 PM
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You now our military helicopters are there trying to rescue them...but they keep getting shot at...they can't drop off food or water for people shooting at them...

If they try to land to help out at the astrodome or what ever it is called they have been shot at.....I understand that they are in real trouble....and when I went through three hurrincanes last year yes they weren't as powerful as this one...but going through three of them...

we weren't shooting at anyone who tried to help us....

I know they need the help...I know people are dying...but the President has sent lots of help over there and they keep getting shot at...why do you think there own law enforcement officers are quiting and walking off the job....because they are actually risking there own lives....

When Andrew came through...the people here in Florida didn't act this way....and it was just as bad....

Sorry didn't mean to get so upset....but I have lived through three....and have seen the descrution of Andrew....
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:17 PM
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I hear ya, Auntie Jeanne...loud & clear!!!! People down there (and all over the world) are jumping down President Bush's back about this and that...but, they aren't saying anything about the Gov. of LA OR the mayor of New Orleans...if people wanna place blame on anybody...it should be those 2...not the President... my well, actually it's been alot more than that...but, y'all know... lol
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Old 09-03-2005, 03:57 AM
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I applaud the posts by Fed-X and do not understand why anyone would applaud Michael Moore! He will do anything to discredit Bush, including making that awful movie, which several of you apparently took as being the gospel truth. That being said, if you want to blame someone, blame the governor of LA who did nothing. Blame the mayor of New Orleans who sat there cursing at Bush! He had hundreds of buses at his disposal. Why didn't he get those buses to Convention Center and the Dome to get people out of town? In fact, why didn't he get the people on the buses last weekend??? And why did those people remain, thinking they could ride it out? YES, many of them felt that way even tho they had so much warning to evacuate the city! I'd have packed a bag and started walking had I lived there and been told to leave. It's only a few who honestly didn't understand the seriousness of the situation. It was on radio, tv and in the newspapers as well as city workers in cars driving around using bull horns to inform the people.

Bush did declare an emergency in advance but governor sat there. She was the slow one! It takes time to mobilize troops and get supplies to the disaster. You wanted Bush to visit the very first day? HOW? All police and military people were needed right there to help - and not to protect a president! That would have pulled the limited resources from helping the people. THINK, folks. Go back and read all that Fed-X has told you. Do your research before saying things that may not be correct. I'm a registered Independent and am Christian conservative. Moore spews propaganda. Even the majority of Democrats do not support the likes of Moore!

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  #44  
Old 09-03-2005, 05:30 AM
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"How long has this Levee been here (since the 20's?) and how long has it been needing improving? Since the 60's. Do he think Bush waves a magic money wand and money is handed out? Aren't we forgetting someones here? Namely CONGRESS? And while we are pointing fingers, where was the money to strengthen the levee back when Clinton was in office and there was no war? "

I agree. People are so quick to criticize Bush, but IMO he has done more than Clinton ever thought about doing. A lot of things going on today started WAY before Bush was president.
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Old 09-03-2005, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb
Kudos to Michael Moore. Buses could have been used ahead of time to get the people out of the areas affected that had no means to leave.... Food and water could have been dropped in earlier.... If the news reporters made it in right away then buses could have as well to get people out that didn't leave...

My heart goes out to all of the people in these areas.... I can't even imagine being in that situation and what they're having to go thru to survive and provide for their families.....

Our $ and national guard are in other countries when both are needed here and not over rebuilding what we blew up....

Deb
So why didn't the prestigious mayor arrange for getting his people out? Where was he? Maybe in some safe location?
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:20 AM
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:21 AM
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:22 AM
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:24 AM
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:26 AM
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lilithinwaiting lilithinwaiting is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
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Thanked 494 Times in 309 Posts
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~There is no easy walk to freedom anywhere, and many of us will have to pass through the valley of the shadow of death again and again before we reach the mountaintop of our desires.
Nelson Mandela ~
 

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