Death and Justice by Mark Fuhrman

[PattiD1157]

Many of you will remember Mark Fuhrman as one of the detectives in the OJ Simpson case. A while back I found a book at our college book store written by him. Well the book was very inexpensive so I thought that even though I totally disagree with his actions and the like I would buy it and see what he had to say. I started the book over the weekend and I could not put it down. It all takes place in Oklahoma City and the majority of it is in reference to prosecutor Bob Mace and a police chemist Joyce Gilchrist. Any of you that live in OK are very familiar with this whole mess.
I was really surprised with the change in attitude from Fuhrman in reference to CP. I strongly urge everyone on both sides of this controversial issue to read this book.
Here are a few quotes from the book.

"The loss that a family of a murder victim feels is not made any less painful by the execution of their loved one's killer. If there is ever any closure for the family of murder victims, it should be based on forgiveness, not revenge." p. 246

"Bill Clinton flew back to Arkansas during the heat of the 1992 campaign to sign the death warrant on a man so retarded he saved a piece of pie from his las meal to eat it later." p. 247

"Now we have to hide our executions. They occur in sterile chambers, witnessed by only a few with close ties to the victim or the condemned. If capital punishment is so popular in Oklahoma, and the process of lethal injection is so painless and clean, why doesn't the state broadcast each execution? Why are the department of Corrections officials so afraid that a video of an execution might "get into the wrong hands"? " p. 248

These quotes below are directly from Fuhrman, a person who once believed in the death penalty. All found on page 251

"My investigation of death penalty in Oklahoma County had brought me to this conclusion: death penalty cases are not investigated or prosecuted at a level that can guarantee justice, or even that the accused is actually guilty."

"I no longer believe in the death penalty. I no longer have faith that it is administered fairly or justly. I fear that innocent people have been executed."

"That's why I am calling for the abolition of the death penalty, not only in Oklahoma but in every state."

"If we don't have the stomach to watch executions, we shouldn't be preforming them."

"I could make all sorts of arguments about deterrence, cost effectiveness, wrongful conviction, politics, philosophy, and so on. But it boils down to this--the death penalty brings out the worst in all of us: hatred, anger, vengeance, ambition, cruelty, and deceit."


Fuhrman, Mark. Death and Justice. 2003.
HarperCollins Publishers Inc., NY
(pp 246-51)

[Danalia]

Sounds like an interesting read. I'll add to my 'Must buy' list and thanks for telling us about it

[DaveMoff]

Fascinating indeed. It is curious that with few exceptions, nations which continue to hold executions do so in increasing privacy. A number have no witnesses at all. Several states in the U.S. do not permit the prisoner to have any witnesses present.

If this is justice, why the need to hide it?

[boflipflops36]

I always like Mark Fuhrman even way back then. Good book

[PattiD1157]

He has other books out that I am going to have to buy and read. Being a student and having my nose in books all the time during the semester, pleasure reading isn't something I do much of but I had to see what that book was about and as I stated I couldn't put it down. Read the whole thing in 3 days in amongst all the other things that go on during the 4th of July weekend. Highly recommended for all.

[shygirl14]

Mark Fuhrman written about the Skakel murder, I heard Dom Dunne helped him get back into the spotlight with this book.
The book is called Murder in Greenwich.

Shy

[ADXDUNGEON]

Originally Posted by DaveMoff

Fascinating indeed. It is curious that with few exceptions, nations which continue to hold executions do so in increasing privacy. A number have no witnesses at all. Several states in the U.S. do not permit the prisoner to have any witnesses present.

If this is justice, why the need to hide it?

In the Middle East they are public and anyone can attend. You would think they would be like that everywhere because they say it's a deterrent.

[Joy]

Originally Posted by DaveMoff

Fascinating indeed. It is curious that with few exceptions, nations which continue to hold executions do so in increasing privacy. A number have no witnesses at all. Several states in the U.S. do not permit the prisoner to have any witnesses present.

If this is justice, why the need to hide it?

I totally agree with you. Why hide how the medications are gotten for the exections when they have to be prescribed by a doctor. Why hide the proceedures, why hide anything......

[lisainengland]

the book sounds fascinating. Does anyone know if it would be available in the uk. I completely agree with the quote. Now we have to hide our executions. They occur in sterile chambers, witnessed by only a few with close ties to the victim or the condemned. If capital punishment is so popular in Oklahoma, and the process of lethal injection is so painless and clean, why doesn't the state broadcast each execution? Why are the department of Corrections officials so afraid that a video of an execution might "get into the wrong hands"? " p. 248
The death sentence or any executions are very rarely mentioned in England. Makes you wonder ?????

[JJS811]

This is very true, we don't hear of executions in the UK, why? We are allowed to be in court for trials, so why if execution is so just, so clean, so sterile, so humane are we 'Joe public' not allowed to make up our own minds? Simple IMO, cos what we are told by the DOC is crap, and reports on executed inmates made during autopsy supports that!

Originally Posted by lisainengland

the book sounds fascinating. Does anyone know if it would be available in the uk. I completely agree with the quote. Now we have to hide our executions. They occur in sterile chambers, witnessed by only a few with close ties to the victim or the condemned. If capital punishment is so popular in Oklahoma, and the process of lethal injection is so painless and clean, why doesn't the state broadcast each execution? Why are the department of Corrections officials so afraid that a video of an execution might "get into the wrong hands"? " p. 248
The death sentence or any executions are very rarely mentioned in England. Makes you wonder ?????

[ADXDUNGEON]

Originally Posted by lisainengland

the book sounds fascinating. Does anyone know if it would be available in the uk. I completely agree with the quote. Now we have to hide our executions. They occur in sterile chambers, witnessed by only a few with close ties to the victim or the condemned. If capital punishment is so popular in Oklahoma, and the process of lethal injection is so painless and clean, why doesn't the state broadcast each execution? Why are the department of Corrections officials so afraid that a video of an execution might "get into the wrong hands"? " p. 248
The death sentence or any executions are very rarely mentioned in England. Makes you wonder ?????

That's because in England and the UK you don't have the death penalty along with the rest of Europe.

Being in England you more than anyone should know that. LOL!

[beez0811]

^You made me giggle.

This topic and the text in the first post is able to spark debate very easily. Isn't this place neutral? Anyhoo...

I guess one of the many reasons why executions are not held in public squares anymore is for the sake of dignity. Dignity for the condemned. From cinematic portrayals of public executions, other audience members that have no affiliation to the criminal or the victim will end up spouting out some sort of verbal venom or cause some sort of disruption.

[mirta]

Originally Posted by ADXDUNGEON

That's because in England and the UK you don't have the death penalty along with the rest of Europe.

Being in England you more than anyone should know that. LOL!

You are right. Before II WW most european states had DP. after it DP doesn't exist any more. In 1945 here, there wasn't "a brick over another one". The lesson was strong and clear. After the nightmare of nazism and fascism the "old Europe" anderstood that a state musn't kill its citizens. the punishment couldn't go far away of prison.like Beccaria said in the end of 1700.
I know mostly americans support DP. but I see it like "the dark side of USA". Europeans love America, they can't forget what USA did in IIWW. We love your music, your movies, your writers, your way of living,
Yesterday, everybody here were with the nose on the tv, looking your new president, that we feel like ours too. because we sopported him all the campaign like he was our candidate , because you are the most important state of the world, and each your desition touches us too
You must be proud to be americans.
USA is again, the America the whole world needs, hopes and dreams. The America that was the light in 1800 for all the continent. The America of FDR , Kennedy and Luther King.
So don't be angry with me when I said that this America is far away of that one that executes its citizens like no-democratic countries do

[JJS811]

I agree, most Europeans do like the States, and all the things about it you describe. For me personally there is only one thing I detest, and that is the justice system. IMO it stinks, from grass roots to the highest courts. Of course there are exceptions, my comments are general ones. I am not for one minute saying ours is any better, it isn't. Whats the answer? Only a complete overhaul of the entire system IMO. Not that it is likely to happen anytime soon.

Originally Posted by mirta

You are right. Before II WW most european states had DP. after it DP doesn't exist any more. In 1945 here, there wasn't "a brick over another one". The lesson was strong and clear. After the nightmare of nazism and fascism the "old Europe" anderstood that a state musn't kill its citizens. the punishment couldn't go far away of prison.like Beccaria said in the end of 1700.
I know mostly americans support DP. but I see it like "the dark side of USA". Europeans love America, they can't forget what USA did in IIWW. We love your music, your movies, your writers, your way of living,
Yesterday, everybody here were with the nose on the tv, looking your new president, that we feel like ours too. because we sopported him all the campaign like he was our candidate , because you are the most important state of the world, and each your desition touches us too
You must be proud to be americans.
USA is again, the America the whole world needs, hopes and dreams. The America that was the light in 1800 for all the continent. The America of FDR , Kennedy and Luther King.
So don't be angry with me when I said that this America is far away of that one that executes its citizens like no-democratic countries do

[mirta]

Originally Posted by JJS811

I agree, most Europeans do like the States, and all the things about it you describe. For me personally there is only one thing I detest, and that is the justice system. IMO it stinks, from grass roots to the highest courts. Of course there are exceptions, my comments are general ones. I am not for one minute saying ours is any better, it isn't. Whats the answer? Only a complete overhaul of the entire system IMO. Not that it is likely to happen anytime soon.

yes , may be here in Europe we haven't the perfect system neither, but we can say we don't kill offenders,
I don't like what,how, executed are. poors and mostly black and latin. If USA has 75% of white population why whites in DR aren't 7 each 10? what does it mean? that white are better? I don't believe in that
I think it is an economical and social fact. Poors can't pay a good lawer It is easier for them to be executed. It is enough to see their photo, to read their surnames.
The mesage that arrives here is that justice depends of money. It is sad, very sad.

[mirta]

Originally Posted by Joy

I totally agree with you. Why hide how the medications are gotten for the exections when they have to be prescribed by a doctor. Why hide the proceedures, why hide anything......

I'd like to think 'cause they feel ashamed to kill someone, may be mostly of them are understanding that to kill isn't the way to make justice....

[lisainengland]

LOL, didnt quite put that right the other day did I !!!. I simply meant that over here we hear about all the good things in the u.s but deathrow, the death penalty and the executions are hidden away.

[Bishopsgirl]

That book sounds great, however I live here in Oklahoma and I know what went on with that lady and district attorney. A lot of innocent men were released but there are still more waiting. As far as the death penalty here it is done by lethal injection. My father was on death row and was a week away from being executed when he was given a stay. I don't think they should be made public for a few reason mainly I guess because my family has been through enough and I don't think my family should be subjected to anymore public embarassment. I do believe in the death penalty in some cases. My father was poor and did not have a good attorney but that didn't stop him from going to the Supreme Court with his case. He made case law and he was the first man on death row in Oklahoma to get his GED. I think it depends on family support not just money. My family fought hard for him and even though he will never walk as a free man he got to live.

[JJS811]

I really feel for you, having a loved one on DR. One day I hope that situation changes.
Many DR inmates don't have the opportunity for education, that saddens me, nor can they work, to gain skills etc.

I can fully appreciate your family not wanting public executions, I agree you have been through enough, and no matter if your father is innocent or guilty, his family surely are innocent.

I think the point people are making here, is, IF the DP is so humane, then why hide it away in sterile chambers, why not let the world see the truth. Many myself included do not believe execution is painless so therefor it cannot be humane. Let us, the general public see it for our own eyes if the DOC is so convinced it is painless. Sorry DOC but there is just too much evidence that IS in the public domain that suggests it is anything but painless and humane!

Originally Posted by Bishopsgirl

That book sounds great, however I live here in Oklahoma and I know what went on with that lady and district attorney. A lot of innocent men were released but there are still more waiting. As far as the death penalty here it is done by lethal injection. My father was on death row and was a week away from being executed when he was given a stay. I don't think they should be made public for a few reason mainly I guess because my family has been through enough and I don't think my family should be subjected to anymore public embarassment. I do believe in the death penalty in some cases. My father was poor and did not have a good attorney but that didn't stop him from going to the Supreme Court with his case. He made case law and he was the first man on death row in Oklahoma to get his GED. I think it depends on family support not just money. My family fought hard for him and even though he will never walk as a free man he got to live.

[Bishopsgirl]

I get the point when people say if it is so humane then make it public so that we can see its humane. That would never be a good thing for the family of the one being executed. Death by any means would never be humane for the simple fact that there is a huge amount of fear involved if you know you are about to die an unnatural death and you can't stop it. I think however that in a lot of cases when the death sentence is carried out it is carried out in a far more humane way then the crime that landed them on death row. For example, there was a case here in Oklahoma a couple years ago where this guy took this little girl and killed her put her in a storage tub and hid her in his closet until the police found her. He recieved the death penalty which is lethal injection here in my state and that is how he will die. The way that little girl spent the last few minutes of her life was not laying on a bed going to sleep. Speaking from the point of view of having had my father on death row I know the ends and outs of his crime and whether my father or not he shouldn't have recieved that sentence and the Supreme Court believes the same way. Now for that guy that did that to that little girl, his family did nothing wrong. They were harassed by the media here they were tortured by what he did. To make his execution public would harass and torture innocent people once more. No means of death will ever be humane if you believe no one ever deserves death. Since I believe in it I stick to my thoughts that it is still better then the first victim got.

[JJS811]

This text was dictated by Billy Vickers to Hank Skinner after he survived an execution date on December 9, 2003. He waited until midnight (time when the death warrant expires) in a death watch cell next to the execution chamber at the Walls Unit in Huntsville. Billy Vickers wanted to share his experience with as many as possible. Billy and Hank were in cells next to each other and Billy no longer had the strength to write. He asked Hank to transcribe their conversations about the last weeks of his life, between two execution dates. Billy was executed on January 28th, 2004.
"THREE AND A HALF STEPS",
by Billy Frank Vickers, a.k.a. "Sonny"
It all started when I got "the date" in September. Up until then it was just something in the distance. Now it was all too real. It seemed like a giant weight descended onto my shoulders. Suddenly the calendar seemed bigger and every number on it had ominous portent. Every day, hour and minute that passed I kept having these recurring thoughts like "Well, I’ll probably never get to do (or: see, hear, say, read, etc.) this again. Everything seemed to take on this flavor of oppressive finality. My mind would run on and on and on for hours and hours. Every new day I woke up to the realization that it’s one less I’d be here.
I remember sometimes thinking of people I’d known in the world who’d died horrible deaths and I found myself envious of them. For them, bad as it was, it was still over and done with in a few minutes/ moments. For me, it’s stretched out over eleven (11) years. It’s always been there (death). But now it’s right on top of me. Yet still days away. I couldn’t imagine how in the world I was going to survive it until the end, then laughed at myself for the insanity of that thought.
On the day of execution I haven’t slept at all. I don’t seem to think cohesively for any length of time at all. It seems like an eternity, yet I keep wondering where the time went. Then the regrets start in, as I’m mostly thinking of my family and how this is hurting them. I keep thinking about things I should’ve said to my family but forgot. Things I should’ve written. But now it’s too late. It seemed time kept growing less and less, as I visit with them and tell them over and over that I love them and goodbye.
The next think I know I’m being shackled and loaded in the van and it’s too late to say anything. All those thoughts and regrets are repeated over and over in my mind during all those hours I sat in the death house waiting to die at any time.
In the death house, I keep thinking of my family. I pray for some way to release them from the pain and torment, for me to just go on and handle this alone, as my problem, to face it. Then I caught myself thinking of the thoughts I had during the ride to Huntsville, with my senses heightened to the point of being painful. I hear the van tires on the pavement as a rushing noise in my ears with every car, tree, building or house we passed I thought, "Well, I’ll never see that again". Then, I start to hear every beat of my heart as if I’m holding it up to my ear. But at the same time, it really hurts and I can’t figure out how it can keep beating and beating that hard.
Then my thoughts are broken when the warden comes into the death house to tell me what will be taking place when the time comes. He points to a door I can see from my cell and tells me behind that door is the execution chamber. When the time comes they will come and get me. If I can’t walk, they will carry me, but either way I’m going. He tells me the chaplain will be here soon.
The chaplain comes and tells me, while I’m on the gurney he will be there holding my ankle to offer comfort.
As these people talk to me, I know they’re people, but at the same time I think of them as something else or, in a bad way. As these thoughts just seem to hang there and it seems to be getting dark but it’s the middle of the day and there’s lights everywhere. Then I see the door that the ambulance will back up to, to pick up my body and that’s when it strikes me all over again, "this is it". There’s no way to describe the pressure I feel as I pray they’ll hurry up and get it over with.
Every time the walkie-talkie bursts to life, a door slams, the phone rings, I nearly jump out of my skin. This is almost constant for six (6) hours. The chaplain tells me that if I hear rustling and movement in the back, he says It’s just the execution team getting ready and for me not to be "alarmed", (they’re just coming to kill you. Don’t be “alarmed"! H.W.S.). They kept me "alarmed" for those long hours of torture.
I talk to the chaplain some while pacing the cell. I’m thinking I’m going to have a heart attack before they get me onto that horizontal cross with needles in my arms instead of nails. I’ve been broke out in a cold sweat for 2 hours. Can’t think. Just pace, pace, pace. Back and forth, back and forth. 3 ½ steps. I can’t remember the subjects or details of anything the chaplain said, just a bunch of words.
I eat some of my last meal but I can’t taste a thing. I just look down and see that some of it is gone.
Six o’clock comes. Nothing. Pace, pace, pace those 3 ½ steps. Seven o’clock. 8 o’clock. Same thing. My mouth is so dry no amount of water can wet it. I know they’re going to open that door any minute and confront me with that gurney and those needles. This is it. This is it. Every time I blink the sweat out of my eye I see it open, I think, that door.
Nine o’clock. I’m still pacing. I can’t take any more of this! Can’t escape it. "Lord," I pray, "just let it be over. Just let it be done one way or another". It feels like my mind has been stretched in a million directions until it has stress holes like Swiss cheese.
Ten o’clock. Pace, pace, pace. I know the attorneys are filing stuff and I want to have hope, but that door… I believe, if a stay was coming they’d already have announced it.
Eleven o’clock. Pace. Pace. My whole body feels like it’s going to explode into a mist. This can’t be real.
Ten minutes to midnight. I’ve gotten so confused and fuzz-minded that all these jumbled thoughts, in pieces, are plying through my mind every direction, so fast it just seems like a constant hum or moan. They say it’s too late, they can’t do it. Tell me to get ready to go back to Polunsky. I can’t comprehend this. I’m supposed to be dead. I barely remember coming back. I can’t walk straight.
The next days I feel so strange, like I’m out of place, out of reality somehow. I’m not able to think, I can’t believe I’m still here. They let the warrant expire. I think now that they must be required to give me life. I got only one set of appeals so it follows they get only one chance to execute me, right? There was no legal reason not to they just failed to. Maybe I should feel lucky but I just feel cheated and cursed. I can’t even get executed right! Yet, I am so grateful and happy to be alive, just for my family. My greatest worry was thinking of them having to go through all this with me, on account of me.
Then, last week I found out from my lawyer that they have set me another execution date. On January 28th, 2004 I’ll have to go through all this again. I can’t believe it. I don’t know what in the world I’m going to say to my wife and kids. I sit down in my cell, trying to comprehend this and start crying. I think I have never shed so many tears over others over so many days in a row or had my heart twisted out of socket this bad. There just are no words for how this feels. Now the whole nightmare starts all over again. I cannot believe it. I know I won’t last through another round of this.
By Billy Frank "Sonny" Vickers
January 2004


Hank is my PP, and we discussed this case. Sonny was executed 30 days later (I believe it was 30). Hank told me the state Sonny was in when he was taken back to Polunsky. Suffice to say, Sonny wanted his story told, but couldn't write it himself. He was just in no fit state TO write it. THIS is what happens the day of execution, from a guy who survived and then succumbed to it's evil!

[Bishopsgirl]

I can smypathize with his family for the loss they have felt and I would imagine that anyone about to die by that means would feel that way. I don't know what put him on death row but having had my father on death row yet I still believe that there are cases where that is approiate. I'm not saying that in Mr.Vickers case it was but I know there are cases where it is more then right. Having my fathers sentence get cut down to life without parole was amazing and I wish everyone could feel that feeling. I mean can anyone imagine celebrating the fact that someone they love got lop? It's kind of strange if I think about it but even if he would have had his death sentence carried out I am confident that he would have felt no PHYSICAL pain from the way it would have been carried out here in this state. Mentally I am sure it would have been torture and I wish no one that amount of torture but I think DOC is worried more about the physical part of it. i wish I could disagree with the death penalty but I just can't. Sorry.

[JJS811]

There is documented medical evidence, and plenty of it, that shows the levels of drugs given are not high enough to render the inmate unconscious, for the duration of the execution. This means the inmate will have been in excruciating pain, in the minutes before death. Autopsy tests have proved that lethal injection does not work, in the pain free stakes, simply because the protocol, that was developed many many years ago, is a "one size fits all". In effect the inmate feels himself suffocate to death. Sorry but if you think that is not painless, I have nothing more to add!

Originally Posted by Bishopsgirl

I can smypathize with his family for the loss they have felt and I would imagine that anyone about to die by that means would feel that way. I don't know what put him on death row but having had my father on death row yet I still believe that there are cases where that is approiate. I'm not saying that in Mr.Vickers case it was but I know there are cases where it is more then right. Having my fathers sentence get cut down to life without parole was amazing and I wish everyone could feel that feeling. I mean can anyone imagine celebrating the fact that someone they love got lop? It's kind of strange if I think about it but even if he would have had his death sentence carried out I am confident that he would have felt no PHYSICAL pain from the way it would have been carried out here in this state. Mentally I am sure it would have been torture and I wish no one that amount of torture but I think DOC is worried more about the physical part of it. i wish I could disagree with the death penalty but I just can't. Sorry.

[DaveMoff]

Quite agree JJS811, there is plenty of evidence that the "lethal injection protocol" used in this country is painful and possibly for quite some time. The combination of drugs used is illegal if employed to euthanize animals, in part for this reason. I believe on some level that's deliberate....that the idea is to show a "neat, sanitary, humane" execution while those in the know are aware that the person being killed is suffering.

The question may well be raised as to why there is a need for a group of chemicals to be used at all. An fast IV drip of Sodium Pentothal (the first drug used now) would be quite sufficient to cause death if continued for several minutes, without any risk of causing pain. The same is true for most of the barbituates and for several morphine-related substances. People who have survived overdosages of these drugs report no discomfort at all. Yet not one have I seen a serious suggestion that they be employed in lethal injections.

To me this stands as a strong indicator that there is a desire for vengeance and to inflict suffering on those who carry out the death penalty. Remember, those who push the plungers walk free among us. Not a comforting thought.

[beez0811]

Some things that affect cats and dogs one way can do something totally different with human beings. They probably need to readjust some of the doses, like for those that weigh a lot.

Originally Posted by DaveMoff

Remember, those who push the plungers walk free among us. Not a comforting thought.

Well, guess what?

Remember, those that haven't been caught and pushed some plungers of their own for no apparent reason are free among us. That's something real to be worried about.