Truth vs Fiction

[Joy]

You know, it seems like we get people coming here saying the same things over and over. I would like to address some of these issues and anyone else out there that thinks of others, please add to this list.

1. Fiction: We don't care about the victims.
Truth: We care VERY MUCH about the victims and many people are in conctact with the victims families to offer support. Many inmates families and victims families join together to try and heal during these horrible times.

2. Fiction: We believe every inmate on death row is innocent and all should be released from prison.
Truth: This is so freaking stupid that it does not even deserve an answer.

[Susan66]

I am against the Death Penalty both religous reasons and secular ones. It is not a deterrant and costs more to kill someone than it does to keep them fed and housed the rest of their lives. DNA wasn't around 20 years ago. What will be around in 20 more years?
The victim and their families are in our thoughts and prayers.But so are the dying and the families who will grieve for their loved ones when the state choses to take their lives'

[yourself]

Fiction number 1 is SO true! Every time the family members of a victim are pro death penalty, they march them out in front of cameras and tout how the death penalty is being used to give them closure. BUT, when the victim's family members are against the death penalty, they don't count - the death penalty is about justice and society, not about the victim's family.

yeah, and I love that either we think they're all innocent or that they should be released argument. Went over well in the 70 s when Furman saw the death penalty abolished. How many of them were immediately released back into the public? how many were actually released? How many of those who were actually released committed murder again? precious few. So much for the idea of a "continuing threat to society" b.s.

the death penalty is expensive, arbitrary and capricious, and too often used for political gain. we cannot guarantee that every person facing execution is in fact guilty. me? I'd rather spend the millions spent on death penalty cases on other things like education, health care, and stuff that will actually help all of society. The whole thing makes no rational sense, and it causes too much emotional harm to those involved.

[Joolz]

Originally Posted by Joy

You know, it seems like we get people coming here saying the same things over and over. I would like to address some of these issues and anyone else out there that thinks of others, please add to this list.

1. Fiction: We don't care about the victims.
Truth: We care VERY MUCH about the victims and many people are in conctact with the victims families to offer support. Many inmates families and victims families join together to try and heal during these horrible times.

2. Fiction: We believe every inmate on death row is innocent and all should be released from prison.
Truth: This is so freaking stupid that it does not even deserve an answer.

Thanks for this! Ive just said something of similar effect to aperson that what questioning why people on here offer support

I summed it with the basic fact that this is a support site so if they are expecting a debate over inmates crimes there is little point, we are good people on here and of course we do not see dp inmates as halo ringed we just dont agree with the death penalty end of.....and we also see that it destroys innocent people eg families

[J&D7]

Excellent thread.

3. Fiction: PTO is a biased site and only caters those who are anti DP.
Fact: PTO does not support either side of the DP debate.. it is not anti DP or pro DP... so long as all posts are respectful in their manner we will accept both sides of the debate.

[Joy]

4. Fiction: We do not write to get gruesome stories and get excitd about murders.
Fact: Many who write to inmates do not talk about the crime, ever, during their correspondence. Only the Pro dp people are obsessed with the gruesome facts and get excited. So, when they come here, they get pissed of because we won't "talk" about the "facts". We don't talk about the "facts" does not mean we do not see what "reality" is and know and understand this is not a "fairytail" game.

[yourself]

Originally Posted by Joy

4. Fiction: We do not write to get gruesome stories and get excitd about murders.
Fact: Many who write to inmates do not talk about the crime, ever, during their correspondence. Only the Pro dp people are obsessed with the gruesome facts and get excited. So, when they come here, they get pissed of because we won't "talk" about the "facts". We don't talk about the "facts" does not mean we do not see what "reality" is and know and understand this is not a "fairytail" game.

Here's the thing, the DP defines a person by one act in his/her life. People are much more than the worst thing that they've ever done. People are much less than the best thing they've ever done. They are all the things they've done, all the things they've felt, experienced. To dwell on one thing, to define the person's entire existence by one horrible thing is an injustice to that person, and every other person who comprises that person's life.

[JJS811]

Ahhhh, BUT... It is easy to suggest we are "thughuggers" care nothing for the victim's or the families, glorify murderer's yadda, yadda as a way to attack our views. If the pro DP's were completely honest, they know we DO care very much about the victims, and the loved ones of crimes. We DO NOT glorify murder as the vast majority of us are against ALL murder. However, to accept and know these FACTS reduces the amount of names and slurs they have against us!

I say, let them carry on with the views they hold, as one thing is sure; a lot of pro DP folk revel in, and party, ring bells and celebrate executions. Comfort yourselves with the knowledge you have caring and compassion for life, and see partying at an execution in dreadful bad taste, and not remotely helpful to ANY of the family members!

I am friends with a couple of ardent anti DP's, who did have loved ones murdered, the killer ended up on the row, yet my friends reached out to the killers, and offered friendship and forgiveness. Perhaps the pro's would like to explain those people?

[DaveMoff]

Perhaps the reason so many of them sound the same is because most of the posts are coming from the same people! I do believe that a very small group indeed is responsible for 95% of the trolling here.

[JJS811]

You could well be right Dave, but one thing I can say is, that for every pro DP'r there is an anti, and although I personally am offended by some of the slurs, I rise above them, knowing they are false. I feel that people who are on the fence over the DP reading such sites, could easily be swayed by these comments, and that could easily make them view us as the pro's would have us portrayed. It is propaganda techniques of course, and I am sure sadly sometimes they work!

[SouthernGyrl]

JJ it works because the exploit people on the basis of fear. To be honest those who have no close ties to the victims or death penalty fight (on either side) don't even know a 1/3 of these men and women exist on the row. They all sleep soundly feeling safe until news of an execution pops up on television, radio, or in the paper. Some of the people living in areas where these people were tried and sentenced forget all about the case once the media attention is gone. Feeling no less safe than before the crime came to light. This alone is proof to me that LWOP would be a much better choice than the dp.

[JJS811]

Of course it is making people fearful, that is one way that the cycle continues. People are led to believe these people are bloodthirsty monsters, who stalk the neighbourhood looking for victims. Until people read cases and realise why a particular murder took place and the reasons behind it, the cycle continues.

Of course no murder is excusable, not one - ever, but to read the case history, in many cases would show that the incident was a one off, brought about by a set of circumstances all coming together at one time, and highly unlikely to happen again.

I don't agree with LWOP either, take away a man's hope, his reason to follow prison rules, and he has nothing there to prevent him committing further crimes, behind bars. Each capital case equivalent should be given life, and then the inmate monitored and evaluated. I agree anyone who murders does need punishing, but with a sentence that shows society can be forgiving and compassionate, and not hateful and mean.

I am also a strong advocate for the murderer being forced to meet his victim's family. I think often the family need answers only the inmate can give. That is IMO one way to help the healing process. Give the family the answers they seek, and the chance to speak with the person who took their loved one from them.

Originally Posted by addykea

JJ it works because the exploit people on the basis of fear. To be honest those who have no close ties to the victims or death penalty fight (on either side) don't even know a 1/3 of these men and women exist on the row. They all sleep soundly feeling safe until news of an execution pops up on television, radio, or in the paper. Some of the people living in areas where these people were tried and sentenced forget all about the case once the media attention is gone. Feeling no less safe than before the crime came to light. This alone is proof to me that LWOP would be a much better choice than the dp.

[Joy]

I do believe in LWOP for certain murders. There are some people that cannot be let back out into our society. However, just because they have LWOP does not mean that they have no hope. You still have incentives to live. Incentives like visitations, being able to work, school, etc... Because they are behind walls does not mean they will have no hope. I have talked to several inmates that have said that LWOP is better than DR and they would feel greatful to have that sentence. It means they get out of their solitary confinement and can have some sort of a life.

Originally Posted by JJS811

Of course it is making people fearful, that is one way that the cycle continues. People are led to believe these people are bloodthirsty monsters, who stalk the neighbourhood looking for victims. Until people read cases and realise why a particular murder took place and the reasons behind it, the cycle continues.

Of course no murder is excusable, not one - ever, but to read the case history, in many cases would show that the incident was a one off, brought about by a set of circumstances all coming together at one time, and highly unlikely to happen again.

I don't agree with LWOP either, take away a man's hope, his reason to follow prison rules, and he has nothing there to prevent him committing further crimes, behind bars. Each capital case equivalent should be given life, and then the inmate monitored and evaluated. I agree anyone who murders does need punishing, but with a sentence that shows society can be forgiving and compassionate, and not hateful and mean.

I am also a strong advocate for the murderer being forced to meet his victim's family. I think often the family need answers only the inmate can give. That is IMO one way to help the healing process. Give the family the answers they seek, and the chance to speak with the person who took their loved one from them.

[JJS811]

This is what I mean by each case being reviewed and evaluated on a case by case basis. Examples such as Ted Bundy, The Green River Killer John Wayne Gacy, the Hillside Stranglers etc, of course could never be free. They IMO are a different breed of killer, not a one off circumstance killer, but a pre-meditated enjoyment killer - so in that respect LWOP is the only option. I don't agree with, and never will agree with LWOP as a blanket sentence.

Originally Posted by Joy

I do believe in LWOP for certain murders. There are some people that cannot be let back out into our society. However, just because they have LWOP does not mean that they have no hope. You still have incentives to live. Incentives like visitations, being able to work, school, etc... Because they are behind walls does not mean they will have no hope. I have talked to several inmates that have said that LWOP is better than DR and they would feel greatful to have that sentence. It means they get out of their solitary confinement and can have some sort of a life.

[Joy]

I do agree with you about LWOP being a blanket sentence. No, I don't believe in that. The cases you mentioned are what I was referring to. I will have to add murders against children would also be a LWOP. But kids that got caught up in the street gangs, kids that get caught up in the peer group stuff, etc. and one day, "things" happen. No, they deserve the chance for rehabilitation and a second chance at life outside the walls.

Originally Posted by JJS811

This is what I mean by each case being reviewed and evaluated on a case by case basis. Examples such as Ted Bundy, The Green River Killer John Wayne Gacy, the Hillside Stranglers etc, of course could never be free. They IMO are a different breed of killer, not a one off circumstance killer, but a pre-meditated enjoyment killer - so in that respect LWOP is the only option. I don't agree with, and never will agree with LWOP as a blanket sentence.

[JJS811]

I have mixed feelings about child killers Joy. My reasons are quite simple, as a mother and a grandmother, when mine were small, they could push and push and push, to the point even the most patient parent would struggle. I think there is a very fine line between those of us who don't hurt our children, and parents who do. Those of us who don't must have some sort of switch in our brain, that stops us, makes us put the infant into a crib, make sure it is safe and warm, and walk away for a few minutes to calm down, opposed to parents who do snap and kill.

For those who kidnap a child with the express desire to kill, then I agree, there is no other sentence that meets the crime and LWOP must be applied in those cases.

Rehabilitation and education used to be part of the U.S. penal system, sadly like so many other positive things, mainly it has gone. I truly do believe that for the vast majority of murderers with help once incarcerated they could become useful productive members of society. Sadly the ethos is to lock up and throw away the key, or worse again - execute!

Maybe public education is also needed to see inmates not as cold blooded killers, but people who made appalling mistakes, but wish to atone. There will always be exceptions to every rule, and evaluation on a case by case basis, would weed out those who would never be safe in society.

Originally Posted by Joy

I do agree with you about LWOP being a blanket sentence. No, I don't believe in that. The cases you mentioned are what I was referring to. I will have to add murders against children would also be a LWOP. But kids that got caught up in the street gangs, kids that get caught up in the peer group stuff, etc. and one day, "things" happen. No, they deserve the chance for rehabilitation and a second chance at life outside the walls.

[DaveMoff]

My friend and I do not discuss her alleged crime, as a rule. What would there be to discuss? Both of us have long since heard far more about it than either of us would care to, and since there are pending court proceedings, a courtroom is the only appropriate place for further communication on the matter. We have many things in common, only one of which is the fact that neither of us is a murderer. After hundreds of letters, phone calls, and visits, we have not even begun to get that far down the list.

I think most of the "pro" folks prefer to start at the bottom. But then, one must consider the mentality. By their works shall ye know them.

[ohiolove]

Originally Posted by Joy

I do agree with you about LWOP being a blanket sentence. No, I don't believe in that. The cases you mentioned are what I was referring to. I will have to add murders against children would also be a LWOP. But kids that got caught up in the street gangs, kids that get caught up in the peer group stuff, etc. and one day, "things" happen. No, they deserve the chance for rehabilitation and a second chance at life outside the walls.

thank you. just.... thank you.

[Joolz]

The day the American president realises that education and freedom from segreagation is a must then I will be on a zimmer frame or dead, this comin from a Northern Ireland resident whos country declared 'peace' years ago yet last week fired petrol boms at the police! *sigh* as long as children are brought up with the views of their parents that are disruptive, we face a long battle, Im sure its the same there, kids are taught to h8, h8 hard (in the bad regions) and they act on it - result = death row at the worst but hey how do we change this???

[Jriley219]

Respectfully, as a pro-CP'er, it is difficult for me to understand the extent of the compassion extended to convicted murderers. I think that is where a lot of the dissonance comes from. Yes, murderers are human beings, but they took willfully took away another human life. There is no excuse for that in my opinion (besides self-defense). In my opinion they deserve to punished to the full extent of the law. They did not allow their victims the chance to survive and thrive. I do not understand why the murderers should be allowed to.

Certainly, many murderes do in the end regret their actions and perhaps maybe become changed people, but because of their actions, because they took away another human life on purpose, with no regard to that person's life, wishes, hopes, dreams, and family, I believe the murderers themselves have relinquished those same rights. Rehabiliation is not an option, unless they can somehow bring the person they murdered back to life. Bottom line, they can't. They are deserving of the same fate (in my opinion). The victim no longer has rights because of the murderer. How is it fair that the murderer be allowed rights and privileges he or she were too callous to extend to their victim(s)?

Yes, I am the relative of a victim, so this is very close to my heart. I hope i was respectful in my argument.

[DaveMoff]

You are most eloquent and respectful. However, you fail to explain how your solution is to be employed without lowering one or more other human beings to the level on which you regard a murderer.

I also believe you are confusing the word "rehabilitation" with "restitution". I quite agree that there can be no restitution for the taking a life. However, I will not become a murderer so that another can "feel better". In fact, I would not do so even to make myself "feel better". There is the matter of conscience, which I retain even though another may have chosen otherwise.

In many parts of the Middle East (and I believe several other nations) the family of a murder victim is allowed to pardon a murderer. And a fair number do. Mind, in a certain number of cases, a significant amount of money changes hands, making the comparison to the Western judicial system imperfect. Except, of course, that rare indeed is the criminal who ends up on Death Row if he or she is able to pay sufficient legal fees. However one may feel about the death penalty for the ultimate in violent crime, it is hardly appropriate punishment for the "crime" of having a bad lawyer or a public defender.

[DaveMoff]

We tread a very slippery slope indeed the moment we believe ourselves possessed of the authority to label any human being as "less than human". History provides numerous examples, which need not be repeated here. To adopt such a belief as policy is to create a world infinitely more dangerous than a world in which murderers are alive in prison cells. For if humanity is merely a matter of definition, a change in prevailing attitudes may change that definition at any moment.

[Colorado_Lawyer]

Fiction: Murderers are less than human.
Fact: Animals do not commit murder. That is a uniquely human activity (with the possible exception of Chimpanzees, but the anthropologist jury is still out on that one). A tiger kills because he is hungry or is defending his territory. He does not pin his victim to a fence and torture him, he does not kill for sexual thrills, and he does not kill as part of a juvenile gang looking for status and entertainment. Only humans do these things (with the possible exception of the third, since juvenile male Chimpanzee gangs have been observed to engage in a random gang murder for thrills and status).

Fiction: People on death row do not deserve to be treated with anything but contempt.
Fact: People on death row were sentenced to death, they were not sentenced to being tortured and then put to death. Torture in any form, including psychological torture, violates the Eighth Amendment, and everyone, including inmates, are protected by the Constitution.

[ExCDCRInmate]

I have been debating with myself since I joined this forum on if I was going to weigh in on the DP issue, and I decided to put in my two cents worth from maybe a little different perspective.

As you can see from my username I am a former inmate. I spent two terms in the California Department of Corrections, 15 years aprt. Both terms were relatively short, but both gave me a unique view at some dark spots of the system.

In my first term I was housed at San Quentin and Pelican Bay. While at Quentin I had a unique opprotuntiy to work on Death Row as a vlerk and while I had very limited personal contact with Death Row inmates I did get a glimpse at their life. Then while at Pelican Bay I done time with murderes who had excaped the death penalty and two men who had been on death row, one prior to 1974 who was commuted to life the other got off of death row on appeal.

First and foremost the thinking that death is the "ultimate punishment" is a lie! Death is the ultimate relief. Both of the former death row inmates had one opinion in common and that is that they wished death would come quick, they both agreed that a life of knowing they were never getting out was worst then any death. These men have to live with the memories and their dismill lives for years. Now I understand that in the case of the seriel killer there is no remorse, but regardless 60 years in prison is a true punishment.

My other fundemental problem with the death penalty that it serves no useful purpose to law and order. The death penalty is NOT a deturant. Sure it eliminates a SYMPTOM but the illness goes on and on. In CA it costs 6-times more to house a death roqw inmate, that is not counting the cost to the state for the caser itself. This is money that could be much better spent rehabitating the people who will get out or better yet educating those who are young so they do no go.

From a religious standpoint my opposition comes from the fact that ONLY GOD GETS TO KILL PEOPLE!! It is not our job, period. Please save the old testment use of the death penalty. That was the best thinking of that day, we have grown wiser and should know better.

As for my feeling about child killer and the like. I can not even imagine what I feel like if someone took a loved one from me. I would not want that person executed I would want to do it myself!! That is the reasaon that victims families do not get top make that decision.

If you have another opinion and rebuttle I would love to hear it. Please write me via private message if possible as I rarely check these forums. Godspeed.

[mammastalkin]

You are correct in your assertions. Thanks so much for your post. The men and women on the Row are human. They have friends, hopes, desires--feelings! Even the serial killers do. Just as you probably knew some violent people in GP--there are some kind, rehabiliatated people on the Row. To forget these simple facts is wrong and denies are own humanity.