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The Drug War A war against drugs, or against families?

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  #26  
Old 07-25-2011, 09:11 PM
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sentence them to where they will get help, not to a prison where there are no facilities to help them overcome their addictions and face their mental illnesses. They need to learn to accept the thing they cannot change and and change the things they can change. They learn nothing sitting behind bars. If you don't help them, once they get out, they will more than likely go right back to their old ways... it is an illness.

My son is Bipolar, he does self medicate. He doesn't see he is bipolar. He has gotten mental heath counseling (he was dx'd 7 years prior to his arrest) since going to prison. He was arrested for trafficking (he was the middleman who made the phone calls to the dealers) in a drug sting. he was a strung out junkie shooting up 3-4 times a day. The State Attorney's Office were willing to drop all charges on him if he worked as an informant for them. He refused. He went to prison. He hurt no one but himself. He isn't getting drug counseling either. He has been locked up since Feb 2009. He comes home in Sept 2011. I am petrified that he is going to go right back to drugs. Why, because he is still Bipolar and always will be. He still doesn't see that he is. He seems to think that he is "ok" and has already said, he may not go back to "roxies" anymore, he will just drink and have joint here and there to "relax".. so what has prison taught him? What has isolation taught him I haven't figured it out yet.. I don't think it has taught him anything.. other than, maybe not to shoot up roxies or help sell drugs.. but it hasn't helped him see drugs are not the way to go.. he is still an addict, he still doesn't see he has a mental illness....

While I know the addict must want to be clean for it to work, the person with the mental illness first must see they have an illness to get help. the only way they are going to see that is if it is thrown in their face, every day. Being forced into counseling and group therapy would help him see who he is.. but instead prison doesn't do that.. they throw you out on the side of the road to work.. then back behind the bars to sleep...
it should read,"he has not gotten mental health counseling since in prison"
He stops his meds each time he feels better because he thinks he isn't bipolar.. he has been on various meds.. while going for counseling. Then he stops.. because he thinks he is better.. oh, and you don't "spread" Biplar.. that is not contagious..
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:38 PM
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All people have choices to make and consequences of those choices to live with. EVen the mentaly ill can choose to not medicate or self medicate but even they have to live with the consequence of thier actions. There are no easy answers to this delimia. I think each of us face this with our kids at one point of time or another.

Here is a question: my daughter did something wrong. Should you have to pay to have her taken care of???
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:46 PM
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Sorry for the double hit here, I could not figure out how to edit my post

I am not trying to open a can of worms here, only to see if there are any real ideas forming in your locations. Drug users need help to get off drugs and stay off drugs. Additions are not criminal but they can lead to criminal behaviour. We can not legalize drugs (legalizing booze has done nothing for the drunks or drunk driving or alochol related crimes) nor can we make every additcting item illegal (prohibition did not stop drinking or crime etc ) The mentaly ill need a place to live and learn if they are not going to take care of them selves...I just don't see prison as that place.

My daughter broke the law even though she knew better. Your taxpayer dollars are paying for her up keep just as you are paying for jails and prisons and halfway houses etc. Why don't we find the programs that work, both in the government and in the private sector, and replicate those?
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:58 AM
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There isn't any funding out there for the help our children and loved ones needs. Rehabilitation centers cost money. I know I don't have the insurance anymore to place my son in a facility that would or could help him at this time. I guess he could have been placed in a state financed mental health facility but from what I have seen in my area it is probably worse then the prison he is in right now.
In the area I moved from they had a 'drug court' that helped families with children try to get off drugs and alcohol. Some were successful but the statistics proved that within 18 months of the state paid program these individuals were either full blown addicts again or lost their children back into the system. Last I looked it was a 12% success rate of them never returning to their previous ways. If you have someone that is addicted and wants to use (either drugs or alcohol) no one is going to stop them, not a program, and not their momma.
I don't believe jail or prison is a cure but it is probably a lower cost to the state to house them then placing them in unit such as drug rehab or mental health facility so that is where they shuffle them off too.
Please don't think what I am saying is harsh. I am up at 3 am in the morning because every freakin thing in my life sucks right now and I am fighting the urge to go talk the guy working behind the counter at the 7/11 into selling me a liter of whiskey. And I bet I could be purdy persuasive right now. What I am trying to say is I know how hard it is not to use but even with money I would have a hard time finding help or a program. It just sucks all the way round and I don't think anyone has an answer or none of us would be here.
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2011, 05:16 AM
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:14 AM
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This is a really complex issue, and I think part of the problem is that any change we make in an effort to solve one aspect of the equation, risks creating a new set of difficulties. I think one thing we should be doing, is to fund the various law enforcement agencies differently. Right now the financial incentives encourage arrests and convictions. It should instead be based on lowered recidivism rates. There are promising alternative programs out there, but there are no incentives, funding, or support to implement them. People have always used forms of mind altering substances for whatever reasons, and we're not going to change something that has always been with us. We'll never fully solve this problem. But I do think changing the funding would create motivations for better outcomes.
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  #32  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:32 AM
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I found an article online about this very subject and thought you all might like to read it. The name of the article is

"Infographic from UnityRehab.com Shows Drug Rehab is Incredibly Less Expensive and More Effective than Jail"

In response to the Obama Administration's recent request to increase the drug war budget, Unity Rehab creates an infographic that illustrates the amount of money already spent on our failed war on drugs and offers a more sensible alternative.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/drug/r...web5255924.htm

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Old 07-26-2011, 02:37 PM
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Thanks for sharing this article. I was somewhat surprised to read it since I also saw statistic out of Texas on the success rate of out patient and in patient rehabs paid for by the state. I am wondering about the costs on the statistics this article shows....$6000 for rehab? Is this an in patient rehab and if so how long does it last? Are they housed or just jumping threw the hoops of couseling for a judge? Maybe if I went back and read slowly I'd find the answers.
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  #34  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:40 PM
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I'm probably going to get in trouble here, but I think reform begins with legalizing marijuana for a variety of reasons. I don't smoke it, and I don't advocate that anyone should, but I don't think it's in the same category as hard drugs, and its presence in that category creates endless complications.

I think some people that wind up on hard drugs found them, because they started out looking for a joint-and over the years realized that meth or pills or whatever just happened to be in the same place. I think marijuana is to widely used and socially acceptable to ever be eradicated-and it's a weed that grows, so we can't regulate its ingredients. I think the money that is made off the sale of marijuana funds a lot of things that do real harm to a community, and while people may still sell illegally, I don't think they would find much of a customer base. People could still make moonshine (and a few do) but it's easier and safer to buy alcohol legally, so there isn't much of a black market for booze. It would clear some cases out of the courts, and reduce the prison population. Both of those things would allow the system to run more efficiently-and hopefully increase the odds of a more just and positive outcome.

I wouldn't want to see hard drugs legalized for purchase, but I would like to see them seperated from the criminal courts. Certainly drug related crimes would still be crimes, (including illegal distribution) and addiction issues should be addressed-but not 'criminally' addressed. Somehow we've jumbled up a lot of things and called them the same, and they're not. There's got to be a more realistic path.
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  #35  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:28 PM
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I do believe addicts need to be accountable for the crime they committed while high. Yes, you break the law you pay. It is just that prisons are not equipped to give the addicts the help they need, not to mention fair sentencing.

Think of this....if the mental instituions had not been shut down and we were allowed to "turn in" our children when they refused help maybe a lot of the outcomes would be different. I remember asking the police to take my daughter to the hospital or somewhere for help. They said unless she is in immediate danger to herself or others they legally can't do anything if she is not willing. No help there...they are only interested if they can put handcuffs on someone.

I was reading about the prison system in Norway. Their philosophy is right on. It is worth googling. Maybe we should send the article to our politictions!
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:35 AM
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Sad situations, but I do feel that a person of addiction does have a choice to change or stay the same. If they choose to continue their path of self destruction, then they will have to pay the coinsequnces. Mental illness(as I have a daughter who is mentally slow) cannot be changed as this happen at birth. She has cerebal palsy, with a seizure disorder, she cannot change her "slowness". So I guess it depends on what the illness is. But I do believe addiction can be overcome, if they want it.
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Old 07-27-2011, 06:56 AM
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wow this has been an interesting thread to read. I am not sure what the answers are either, but i do know that something needs to change. I have battled drug addiction with my kids for a very long time. My daughter started using at the age of 11 and my son when he about 15. Both started on weed and progressed to harder and more dangerous drugs.
What i do know is that I personally spent years advocating and screaming for help with both of them. I have done all that a parent is supposed to do and more. I have been tough and i have tried rehab and i have went into dangerous neighborhoods and pulled them out of drug houses by thier hair. I have been shot at and had my car shot up and my house damaged and been terrified out of my wits many days. I went months without knowing where my daughter was and even traveled across country once to indentify a body the police thought was her. Addiction has destroyed my life both emotionally and financially, and I am NOT the addict.
It is true that addicts will not stop until they are ready and want it for themsevles but i have to ask this...when did we give such power to children? Several studies has suggested that the human brain does NOT develop in the area of reasoning and being rational until about the age of 25 so how can we expect our children who are not this age to be able to reason when they have an addiction?
Yes we all should be accountable for our behavior and when or if we choose to engage in criminal behavior there are consequence to our actions, however How can we justify prison when society does not even attempt other methods such as rehabilitation? No money?.... Maybe if we stopped supporting prisons and started supporting rehabilitation there wuld be funding for help. However i think most in soceity dont support rehabilitation because it is not thier probelm and when it becomes their probelm it is too late.
I often wonder if my daughter would be doing life if she had gotten help before hand. My daughter was on probation for a year when she was 17...... I fought and fought with her Probation officer to help me and address her drug issue. her probation officer was more concerned with her graduating from high school. My daughter never passed a drug test the entire time she was on probation and they did nothing as long as she went to school. the probation officer ignored her addiction and acted like it was a "phase"..... well my daughter graduated...... some months later as her drug use continued to spiral she was arrestted and senteced to life in prison. Her crime certainly warrents some form of punishmnt, however could the crime ( or at least her part) been avoided if she had received help beforehand? She was high the night the crime happened and she doesnt even remember a great deal of it....If rehabilatation had been an option and used beforehand would my daughter be in prison? well honestly maybe the answer is yes but i firmly believe if she had received help she would be coming home and not spending the rest of her life behind bars.
My son was given 5 years for stealing a weed eater..... who does this? an addict. could my son been helped as a juvinile if there was rehabilatation? I think he would have. he was feeding an addiction.
I cannot speak for older adult children as both of mine were 18 when they went to prison... but i can speak on how the juvinile system failed both of them becuase there is no rehabilatation and now they sit in prison not geting help but learning more criminal behavior and festering anger toward the ones who placed them there.
My daughter is clean now ( 3 years) she made the choice to stop in prison and i beleive she would have made that choice had someone in authority given a crap before she was 18.
My son is clean now and I beleive he would have been sober beforehand as well if the system gave a crap. As a parent we can only do so much and without the support of those in power and soceity we are fighting a loosing battle.
I dont think legalizing drugs is the the answer. it was not the answer for alcohol or tobacco either. I dont think locking our children up is the answer either..... however until we as a SOCEITY begin to care more about what is hapening and come together to support and fund programs that address mental health needs and drug addictions i dont know if there is another answer.
this is a vicious circle that never ends....there has to accountabilty somewhere.... I agree we have to accountable for our behavior but i also think some of the accountability has to fall to soceity and those in power too. too many people choose to turn thier heads and close thier eyes when it comes to addictions. "if i dont deal with it, then it is not real" people in the positions to help are worn out and frustrated because there is no money for programs and rehab and the cases invovling addicts are spiralling out of control.
you know oneof my biggest issues with this country is that we seem to have all the money in the world to help other countries and pay for private jets and private vacations for people in government, there is money for feed the children and rebuild every other country in the world and save every known animal to man but when someone says " hey, I am an american and i need help" there is no funding. now dont misunderstand me there are ALL awesome causes and i think we should help when we can but I think we should take care of our country FIRST before we reach out. As much as i love Whales, dolphins, and any animals of any kind....I believe our children and families come first and that money should spent investing in our soceity then animals and whatever after that.
we can not continue to punish the addictions as the addictions dont care. once the individual is released the addiction monster comes back.
As much as i love my children and i know others have went through this too.... I know that if either was released right now they would be sober for only a small amount of time before the addiction took control again. My children are being punished for the crime not treated for the addiction which is the reason for the crime. If we take medication for an illness but do change our behavior that lead to the illness we will become sick again..... it this not the same with addiction? is addiction not an illness? Mental health issue? so why are we sending these people to prison without treating the illness which led them there?
Maybe i am talking in circles.... I just dont know what the answers are.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:31 PM
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MEGSMOM, I agree we need to help our People first, America needs to stop all this giveing to others and help this Nation get its citizen help. Your post makes sense to me,
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:41 PM
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I will agree with you, right up to the point that you say there's nothing for Americans. There is so much for Americans that we are stunned when there's a gap. Of course, a great deal of the problem is that the money goes to places that only certain Americans can get their hands on it. If you have a 100,00-acre farm, you can get subsidies out your butt. If you are a dairy farmer in the northern states, however, running 100 milch cows, you can't get diddly. If you have an international corporation, you can get subsidies to increase your marketing abroad while you're sending jobs over there. If you have a business that has 40 employees right here, you can't get a subsidy to do your marketing for anything!

You have to be big to get the money..

Domestic abuse agencies are funded by state and local governments with help from federal money. WIC and AFIDC are government programs. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, National Parks (and if you haven't visited one, you are missing out on some of the greatest places in the nation - good for the soul).

There are hundreds more examples.


We actually give away very little - our foreign aid goes mostly to other governments to buy military equipment from America, so the money comes right back to the big contractors. Far more leaves the US from private pockets, those of us who donate for various reasons to various causes.

You want to bitch about getting nothing - look at a Reservation! No services worth anything, no land that any decent farmer would want. Unemployment over 40%.

Now there is a group of Americans who really get nothing!
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:06 PM
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Their unemployment rate isn't the only thing with a high percentage-depression, alchoholism, drug abuse, diabetes, rates are sky high on the rez.
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:15 PM
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I will agree with you, right up to the point that you say there's nothing for Americans. There is so much for Americans that we are stunned when there's a gap. Of course, a great deal of the problem is that the money goes to places that only certain Americans can get their hands on it. If you have a 100,00-acre farm, you can get subsidies out your butt. If you are a dairy farmer in the northern states, however, running 100 milch cows, you can't get diddly. If you have an international corporation, you can get subsidies to increase your marketing abroad while you're sending jobs over there. If you have a business that has 40 employees right here, you can't get a subsidy to do your marketing for anything!

You have to be big to get the money..

Domestic abuse agencies are funded by state and local governments with help from federal money. WIC and AFIDC are government programs. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, National Parks (and if you haven't visited one, you are missing out on some of the greatest places in the nation - good for the soul).

There are hundreds more examples.


We actually give away very little - our foreign aid goes mostly to other governments to buy military equipment from America, so the money comes right back to the big contractors. Far more leaves the US from private pockets, those of us who donate for various reasons to various causes.

You want to bitch about getting nothing - look at a Reservation! No services worth anything, no land that any decent farmer would want. Unemployment over 40%.

Now there is a group of Americans who really get nothing!
My apoligies, I have appearntly struck a nerve and offended you. However you are entitled to your opinions as I am mine. Even though we may share similar experiences with children in prison .. Until you have walked in my shoes and struggled as I have you have no idea how many programs and services are NOT available for regular American citizens. Again I apologize for offending you But we are entitled to a difference of Opinions.
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Old 07-30-2011, 03:55 AM
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And a sexual assault rate that would make your hair fall out!
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:11 AM
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I have to say I totally agree with megs mom you could not have it written better my son who is 25 been on the wrong path since he was 13 everytime he would get help being in rehabs while I had insurance on him he was doing good tried everything to help him
He is mentally challenged that's why he is locked up for the next 20 years and his life is ruined
Prison is not the answer for my son
America should have more mental and psychological help for people and the prisons would not be that overcrowded
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:25 PM
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I just came up with this saying. How many people think this is true? So many addicts sitting in prison. Yes, they committed crimes...but some would have never, ever, committed a crime if they weren't high on drugs. Why did they do drugs in the first place? How did it get to the point of criminal activity?

Drug court is one alternative, but it doesn't work for everyone....and all drug courts are not the same. Some have compassionate Judges who like their position, and some are elected City Judges who fell into the job.

Judges should not have sole control over an addicts fate. They have too much power.

My daughter has attended countless drug group sessions over the past three years, and now that she is in prison is taking money addiction class, and any other classes that are required. Yes, she may pick up a point or two that will make her think for awhile. Most of it is repetetive.

BUT

What is in her brain that made her drug addiction lead to crime without the ability to stop? Why can't these people with all the authority see that these kids need serious one on one therapy and diagnosis?


YOU CAN'T PUNISH A DISEASE and get results, and addiction is a disease. Do judges recognize that addiction is a disease? What is the answer?

My daughter requested a therapist in prison and met with her, therapist said I can see you every six weeks!?! WTF wasting taxpayers money. My daughter said no, I need to see you every two weeks. The therapist replied that she will try. Four weeks later, no call out.

They go in as addicts, and come out hardened, having had no guidence. What is in the prison system that is positive? What happens in there that can make a person better? I hear about the sex that goes on, how to sneak stuff by guards, how to get away with as much as they can and not get caught, how someone has tried to commit , how people steal socks, meds, cigs. How to come up with creative ways to survive.....and get a simple thing like deoderant. What is to be learned from all of this? Is all of this going to deter an addict from making a poor decision when on the outside? Addicts do not have this ability. They can't think: I can't do herion because i will go back to jail.

Thoughts anyone? My mind is swarming...must be going through some kind of cycle...where's the moon tonight?

I so agree it leaves me fuming. I even did research that people with drug or alcohol addictions suffer from chemical imbalances. The justice system annoys me. And they say dedicated to serve and protect I wouldnt trust the law with my life. They are not regular criminals they don't do harm to others only themselves and they need help. They should not be institutionalized like criminals they should be rehabilitated
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Old 08-20-2011, 06:26 PM
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Everyone that has posted makes very good points and issues.
I live in FLA and where I live there are no such things as being able to go to rehab for the older drug addicts such as my husband. He gets high and he gets LOST..
My husband is a Meth Addict From Hell.. theres no other terms for me to use. He is also bi polar as the day is long if not the year is long.
Every crime that my husband has been sent to jail for is because he committed it while high on Meth.. I dont like it I dont accept it but what I have learned is that he has to be the one to be responsible for getting his act together and finding a way out of this addiction. The courts in this state have just now started sending first time offenders to some form of rehab. Most go because they dont wont to do jail time, or prison time. And when they come out.. yes they use again.
Staying clean is a choice.. I am not sure that being an addict is a choice. I use to, I now know that it is as first stated in the starting post a diease.. But it doesnt not excuse someone from being punished for the crimes they committed while HIGH .
We also know that addiction can be gentic.. passed down.. in the womb if a mother is using her child can be born addicted they say a child has a very good possiblity of being coming an addict..
This may be true and can be proven but in the end the Choice to use get clean and stay that way are up to the addict.
I am a survior of being molested as a child.. over and over again..
does that give me the right to molest a child and get a way with it?
Because it was done to me? I HATE people that use that as an excuse. Because in the end the truth is...... ITS ALL ABOUT CHOICES.
Help is there and it is hard to come by for addicts but its there and its up to them to get it.. A disease yes.. and excuse ...NO
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nimuay View Post
Mates, you must be kidding! It's our job to control our citizens, not the citizens of other countries, particularly not by bombing the bejabbers out of them. Not to mention that going after Mexico doesn't solve cocaine or heroin at all, or meth, which is completely home-made.

It's US, the people of the United States, who need to change our society, our wants, etc. People who want/need a drug for escape from either their genetics or their history will find one, whether it's sugar or alcohol or whatever.
and there you have it .... with out DEMAND there is no NEED for SUPPLY.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:48 PM
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All people have choices to make and consequences of those choices to live with. EVen the mentaly ill can choose to not medicate or self medicate but even they have to live with the consequence of thier actions. There are no easy answers to this delimia. I think each of us face this with our kids at one point of time or another.

Here is a question: my daughter did something wrong. Should you have to pay to have her taken care of???
i disagree, sometimes the mentally ill have no idea of what planet they live on, never mind that they need to take their meds. or that they have meds. to take. but yes, you are very right about ppl. being responsible for the choices they make.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:04 PM
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I have met some extremely smart addicts behind bars over the years. You should see them when they are inside. The majority are clean and hold jobs while inside. They often reach out to family members and are able to mends broken fences. Its a beautiful thing to see.

Then I see them outside the walls days, weeks, months, or years later and they are back to the same. Some will tell you they can't wait to get out and use, other say they will try, and some fight extremely hard to stay clean and do.

It all depends on the person because I have yet to see an addict that was dedicated to staying clean go back. They have to own their part in all of this because no matter how many programs they attend, meetings they visit, etc unless they want it bad enough it won't happen.
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Old 09-05-2011, 03:52 AM
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I just came up with this saying. How many people think this is true? So many addicts sitting in prison. Yes, they committed crimes...but some would have never, ever, committed a crime if they weren't high on drugs. Why did they do drugs in the first place? How did it get to the point of criminal activity?

Drug court is one alternative, but it doesn't work for everyone....and all drug courts are not the same. Some have compassionate Judges who like their position, and some are elected City Judges who fell into the job.

Judges should not have sole control over an addicts fate. They have too much power.

My daughter has attended countless drug group sessions over the past three years, and now that she is in prison is taking money addiction class, and any other classes that are required. Yes, she may pick up a point or two that will make her think for awhile. Most of it is repetetive.

BUT

What is in her brain that made her drug addiction lead to crime without the ability to stop? Why can't these people with all the authority see that these kids need serious one on one therapy and diagnosis?


YOU CAN'T PUNISH A DISEASE and get results, and addiction is a disease. Do judges recognize that addiction is a disease? What is the answer?

My daughter requested a therapist in prison and met with her, therapist said I can see you every six weeks!?! WTF wasting taxpayers money. My daughter said no, I need to see you every two weeks. The therapist replied that she will try. Four weeks later, no call out.

They go in as addicts, and come out hardened, having had no guidence. What is in the prison system that is positive? What happens in there that can make a person better? I hear about the sex that goes on, how to sneak stuff by guards, how to get away with as much as they can and not get caught, how someone has tried to commit suicide, how people steal socks, meds, cigs. How to come up with creative ways to survive.....and get a simple thing like deoderant. What is to be learned from all of this? Is all of this going to deter an addict from making a poor decision when on the outside? Addicts do not have this ability. They can't think: I can't do herion because i will go back to jail.

Thoughts anyone? My mind is swarming...must be going through some kind of cycle...where's the moon tonight?
Thank you for your post. I can sense the frustration that you have. Please do not take what I say the wrong way as I do get what your trying to say.

My opinion is before the drugs, addicts knew the difference between right and wrong. They all understood what breaking the law meant. Yes it's a sad situation, but addicts are no dummies, very smart people and they do THINK, they just dont CARE. Its very hard to understand how a drug can make a person turn their back on everything they know and love. I am a recovering addict and when I look back to my darker side, I cant believe some of the things that I did. I hit MY rock bottom, I hit a situation that made me snap out of it so to speak. I wanted to get my life back, I wanted to make the steps, I wanted to finally start living. But this took 10+ years to realize it. And it was because I was always dodging a bullet. Someone was always there to aid me which never made me face the harhness and true realities of my addiciton actions.

Addicts need consequence just like anyone else. But they also need support and your daughter is lucky she has you.

I think you are a loving devoted mother who just wants her daughter back. I feel for you as NO parent would ever wish to watch thier child, the child we birthed and raised and loved battle addiction. On a positive level, there is always HOPE, but your daughter has to do the work herself. I have stated in a Thread called "So whats your story" that I am living proof that if a person wants to change their life around, they can"

Be brave, be strong, have hope xoxo wish you all the best
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Last edited by Tabbycat; 09-05-2011 at 04:33 AM..
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